Miller Farms fined

[Josh]

Likewise in Australia you can buy “bath milk” to, well, take a bath in.

[Ken]

That seems like an astonishing amount of time and effort to simply avoid having your facility licensed inspected like the other 119 small-scale raw milk producers who are operating without trouble within the state of Pennsylvania. Including the several dozen who are operating in Lancaster County.

About 5 seconds to sign the paperwork and another 5 to hand over the cash, or 20 seconds to write out a cheque.

Ohio doesn't have any state regulated commercial raw milk sales regime like PA and CA have.

Incidentally, JM, in Maryland raw milk sales for pet milk are legal, and an individual has the freedom to decide to consume pet food, although in my household we are placing significant restrictions on my 2 year old when he decides to sample the cat, dog, or chicken feed.

I'm not talking about the time and effort on the part of the customer (and yes, that it what they actually are, not some "club member")

I'm talking about all the time and effort on the part of Miller to set up all these fake cow shares, boarding fees, milking fees, shareholders, and so forth.

Just get an ordinary dairy license like all the other small dairies and avoid all that nonsense.

[ken_sylvania]

That seems like an astonishing amount of time and effort to simply avoid having your facility licensed inspected like the other 119 small-scale raw milk producers who are operating without trouble within the state of Pennsylvania. Including the several dozen who are operating in Lancaster County.

About 5 seconds to sign the paperwork and another 5 to hand over the cash, or 20 seconds to write out a cheque.

Ohio doesn't have any state regulated commercial raw milk sales regime like PA and CA have.

Incidentally, JM, in Maryland raw milk sales for pet milk are legal, and an individual has the freedom to decide to consume pet food, although in my household we are placing significant restrictions on my 2 year old when he decides to sample the cat, dog, or chicken feed.

I'm not talking about the time and effort on the part of the customer (and yes, that it what they actually are, not some "club member")

I'm talking about all the time and effort on the part of Miller to set up all these fake cow shares, boarding fees, milking fees, shareholders, and so forth.

Just get an ordinary dairy license like all the other small dairies and avoid all that nonsense.

I guess he's saying if he does get a license they won't let him sell kefir and such...

[JohnHurt]

What Is A Properly Formed PMA?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-pro ... id-edwards

David Edwards
President at PMA Power
Published May 24, 2019
+ Follow
A PMA is simply a form of a Private Association. These are commonly known as a Private Association, Health Association, or Private Membership Association.

A Private Membership Association (“PMA”) is men and woman collectively asserting and standing upon their rights to determine what devices, products, procedures, or services will be used by them to maintain the health of their own body, mind or spirit; and Men and women collectively asserting and standing upon their right to Provide and share, legal and lawful services, procedures, advice, counsel, tips and any other information or services which may be deemed beneficial to Association members and freely share, discuss, and obtain, exchange, view and/or use information and services by members of the Association, and the right to determine for ourselves which products, services, tips, advice, and counsel is most beneficial to us without the information being censored through regulation or restriction upon these rights.

A PMA is like a private family (PMA creator = the head of the family; PMA members = family members). Just like in a close family, what is communicated or happens inside a family’s private home, among only family members are private matters generally immune from and not subject to censorship/control by any administrative agency of any government.

PMAs have an established history and maintain a significant and unique standing in law; they are generally immune from most, if not all, state and federal Public Laws. The exception would be if the activities of the association present a "clear and present danger of a substantial evil".

Why are they immune from public laws? They are private, not public. The ability to form a PMA and the protections afforded by a properly formed PMA seem to be new information to many people but they are not a new concept. You have the right to assemble and to associate. That right has always been there. Private Membership Associations have been around for a very long time.

NOTE: The level of protections will always be determined by your founding documents. If your association is properly formed, the establishing documents will define who has the authority to determine all matters of association business and which tribunals and authorities have the jurisdiction to get involved. This will always be determined by the founder or their appointees. If the founding documents, including the articles of association, are created in statutory compliance the courts maintain their jurisdiction, even if that jurisdiction is limited.

It's PMA-Power’s opinion that the courts should always be kept out of association business but most associations, within their founding documents, either include submitting to the statutes of the laws of the State, or are filed under the authority of the state (such as the Secretary of State).

What are some examples of a Private Membership Association?

Drinking is allowed inside “private clubs” in “dry counties” in states of The United States of America where the sale of alcohol to the public is restricted or illegal; smoking is allowed inside “cigar bars” or "private clubs" in states having public laws prohibiting smoking in government buildings and in buildings open to the public; membership is restricted and only private rules apply inside private golf, baseball, football, soccer and other sports clubs; Men’s, Women’s, Boy’s and Girl’s Clubs; the Cub, Brownie, Boy and Girl Scouts of America; the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (N.A.A.C.P.); the American Medical Association; and, even the local, state and federal BAR Associations, all of which are various forms of a PMA, generally follow only their own rules, not public law.

If they have these protections in place, shouldn't we? The biggest part of the case law that keeps the government restriction and intrusion out of your business comes from court decisions starting in the 1950's and 1960's. Prior to that, there wasn't much effort on the part of government to over step their boundaries when it comes to a private association so there wasn't a need to involve the courts. Since that time, there have been very few cases of government being able to successfully challenge the operation of a PMA and the few that fall into that category were only successful because the PMA was formed in statutory compliance giving government the authority to intervene from the founding of the association.

The protections of a Properly Established Private Association have been known, and widely used, throughout the natural healthcare industry for a long time but most people never had a need to know about it.

I never saw where the Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture argued that Miller was not a Private Membership Association (PMA). So I don't think that is the issue.

Then if Miller is a legitimate PMA, it looks like an open and shut case, and the PA Dept of Ag has already lost. So I don't think that is the issue.

But, if the PA Dept of Ag is challenging the right of all Private Membership Associations to act in private, then that would make sense why Robert Barnes and thousands of people outside PA are interested and supporting Miller in this case. What happens to Miller could affect all PMAs. And that explains why Miller won't buckle under pressure, and why the PA Dept of Ag is determined to break Miller.

So it is more than just selling raw milk. They want the power to regulate all PMAs.

Being a Private Membership Association, acting in private with private members, is the real issue.

No, it is about engaging in commerce.

You can be a private membership club and operate something like a youth soccer league which I have done for 15 years and no one from the state thinks to bother you.

But if you are going to engage in commercial commerce of food and agricultural products then you will be subject to regulations. It doesn't really matter how you structure your business. Or even if you sell to the public. If you only sell to say a single school district or private hospital and not members of the public the regulations apply as well.

Do you have any legal basis for what you have said?

I provided legal information from the President of PMA Power showing that only a "clear and present danger" could allow the State to intervene in a Private Membership Association. Do you have something from the other side to back up your claims?

Or how about this, that we make a comparison to your soccer club and selling raw milk, both under a PMA that you think should be regulated by the State government - but only for raw milk. Here it is:

Your private membership soccer club is legally in the business of selling soccer experiences and soccer training to children. I am sure money is involved in purchasing soccer equipment and shirts. So yes, that is commerce and it needs to be regulated by the State.

Just like drinking raw milk, someone could get hurt in soccer, which is why your PMA needs to be regulated. There needs to be mandatory insurance regulation over your PMA to protect the children, maybe $500,000 in insurance per child for starters. Then there are the health risks of COVID transmission, so we need to regulate that all of the soccer balls must be bleached and cleaned before they are passed from child to child, even if that delays the games. Testing of all soccer balls is mandatory, and failure to provide full testing procedures can and will result in a SWAT raid on your soccer premises.

You say you live in Washington State? I will contact Children's Services and see if I can get them to assist you in managing your private membership association. Does your soccer teams travel across State lines? Then we need to involve the Federal Government as there are more Federal regulations to be observed. You may be in jail tomorrow, after we do a raid on your location.

No, Ken, it doesn't work that way. A PMA is outside State and Local jurisdiction as long as no clear and present danger is present. So your soccer kids are quite safe from State intervention, as long as the Amos Miller case does not set some new wacky precedent.

And Amos Miller is also outside the State of PA's jurisdiction, as he has a Private Membership Association. PA is trying to establish a new precedent, even if there is no "clear and present danger." I really hope they fail.

[JohnHurt]

We do Community Shares Agreements in TN, or CSAs. It is more for the allocation of food resources than to avoid State government.

They sell raw milk as pet food to the public in TN, and you need to sign a waiver saying it is pet food.

There are private groups selling raw milk through PMAs in TN, but we get our milk from a neighbor, when we are lucky. So we are totally outside the system.

I also sell the animals I raise to individuals for cash. When I sell to the commercial processor, I have to use a scrapie tag.

No "revenue agents" ever drive down our road. There is a well known moonshiner up the hollow, he provides moonshine for the Sheriff's annual ball. So he is never bothered.

If someone were sniffing around the wrong place in this part of TN, they would find his car in a lake. There are a lot more "feral" people in TN than PA, I suppose.

[RZehr]

That seems like an astonishing amount of time and effort to simply avoid having your facility licensed inspected like the other 119 small-scale raw milk producers who are operating without trouble within the state of Pennsylvania. Including the several dozen who are operating in Lancaster County.

About 5 seconds to sign the paperwork and another 5 to hand over the cash, or 20 seconds to write out a cheque.

Ohio doesn't have any state regulated commercial raw milk sales regime like PA and CA have.

Incidentally, JM, in Maryland raw milk sales for pet milk are legal, and an individual has the freedom to decide to consume pet food, although in my household we are placing significant restrictions on my 2 year old when he decides to sample the cat, dog, or chicken feed.

I'm not talking about the time and effort on the part of the customer (and yes, that it what they actually are, not some "club member")

I'm talking about all the time and effort on the part of Miller to set up all these fake cow shares, boarding fees, milking fees, shareholders, and so forth.

Just get an ordinary dairy license like all the other small dairies and avoid all that nonsense.

In some states these farm shares are quite popular and legitimate. I’ve heard of them in Oregon. Never used them, because it seems too complicated for me.

Sounds like PA doesn’t need them though, because of the fairly permissible regulations that they have compared to some states.

[Ken]

I never saw where the Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture argued that Miller was not a Private Membership Association (PMA). So I don't think that is the issue.

Then if Miller is a legitimate PMA, it looks like an open and shut case, and the PA Dept of Ag has already lost. So I don't think that is the issue.

But, if the PA Dept of Ag is challenging the right of all Private Membership Associations to act in private, then that would make sense why Robert Barnes and thousands of people outside PA are interested and supporting Miller in this case. What happens to Miller could affect all PMAs. And that explains why Miller won't buckle under pressure, and why the PA Dept of Ag is determined to break Miller.

So it is more than just selling raw milk. They want the power to regulate all PMAs.

Being a Private Membership Association, acting in private with private members, is the real issue.

No, it is about engaging in commerce.

You can be a private membership club and operate something like a youth soccer league which I have done for 15 years and no one from the state thinks to bother you.

But if you are going to engage in commercial commerce of food and agricultural products then you will be subject to regulations. It doesn't really matter how you structure your business. Or even if you sell to the public. If you only sell to say a single school district or private hospital and not members of the public the regulations apply as well.

Do you have any legal basis for what you have said?

I provided legal information from the President of PMA Power showing that only a "clear and present danger" could allow the State to intervene in a Private Membership Association. Do you have something from the other side to back up your claims?

Or how about this, that we make a comparison to your soccer club and selling raw milk, both under a PMA that you think should be regulated by the State government - but only for raw milk. Here it is:

Your private membership soccer club is legally in the business of selling soccer experiences and soccer training to children. I am sure money is involved in purchasing soccer equipment and shirts. So yes, that is commerce and it needs to be regulated by the State.

Just like drinking raw milk, someone could get hurt in soccer, which is why your PMA needs to be regulated. There needs to be mandatory insurance regulation over your PMA to protect the children, maybe $500,000 in insurance per child for starters. Then there are the health risks of COVID transmission, so we need to regulate that all of the soccer balls must be bleached and cleaned before they are passed from child to child, even if that delays the games. Testing of all soccer balls is mandatory, and failure to provide full testing procedures can and will result in a SWAT raid on your soccer premises.

You say you live in Washington State? I will contact Children's Services and see if I can get them to assist you in managing your private membership association. Does your soccer teams travel across State lines? Then we need to involve the Federal Government as there are more Federal regulations to be observed. You may be in jail tomorrow, after we do a raid on your location.

No, Ken, it doesn't work that way. A PMA is outside State and Local jurisdiction as long as no clear and present danger is present. So your soccer kids are quite safe from State intervention, as long as the Amos Miller case does not set some new wacky precedent.

And Amos Miller is also outside the State of PA's jurisdiction, as he has a Private Membership Association. PA is trying to establish a new precedent, even if there is no "clear and present danger." I really hope they fail.

The fact that Amos Miller just lost in state court while making that very claim is all the legal basis I need for what I just wrote.

You can make up all the fake law that you want. And goodness there are a lot of sovereign citizen types out there making up stuff. But the Pennsylvania courts says I'm right and you are wrong. We just went through a trial to find that out. And they are the actual authority, not you or me.

[Ken]

About 5 seconds to sign the paperwork and another 5 to hand over the cash, or 20 seconds to write out a cheque.

Ohio doesn't have any state regulated commercial raw milk sales regime like PA and CA have.

Incidentally, JM, in Maryland raw milk sales for pet milk are legal, and an individual has the freedom to decide to consume pet food, although in my household we are placing significant restrictions on my 2 year old when he decides to sample the cat, dog, or chicken feed.

I'm not talking about the time and effort on the part of the customer (and yes, that it what they actually are, not some "club member")

I'm talking about all the time and effort on the part of Miller to set up all these fake cow shares, boarding fees, milking fees, shareholders, and so forth.

Just get an ordinary dairy license like all the other small dairies and avoid all that nonsense.

In some states these farm shares are quite popular and legitimate. I’ve heard of them in Oregon. Never used them, because it seems too complicated for me.

Sounds like PA doesn’t need them though, because of the fairly permissible regulations that they have compared to some states.

You can buy and sell raw milk in Oregon. And there are farmers markets all over the place. In fact you can buy raw milk at most farmer's markets. I don't see the point of all these schemes. I guess some of it is an attempt to prop up small farms that are otherwise struggling. But then you are essentially subsidizing them.

I'm surrounded by great farmer's markets. If I don't want grocery food and my garden isn't producing I have lots of choices.

[RZehr]

I think in Oregon there is are at least a couple restrictions. 1. You aren’t allowed to advertise your raw milk for sale; 2. You are only allowed to have 2-3 cows maximum at a time for selling any raw milk.
I don’t know if these farm shares are to get around some of these limitations, or if they are a way for a small farm to have a consistent outlet for their myriad of farm products from milk to honey, to vegetable to beef.

I knew one guy that had a farm like this, and I guess it worked for him. Big subscriber list of local customers. I’m sure I’ve gotten some of the details mixed up, but I seem to remember there being some reason why they do it that way instead of just selling to whoever comes along to buy it. But they aren’t doing it to get around food safety or just to complicate their paperwork.

[Judas Maccabeus]

About 5 seconds to sign the paperwork and another 5 to hand over the cash, or 20 seconds to write out a cheque.

Ohio doesn't have any state regulated commercial raw milk sales regime like PA and CA have.

Incidentally, JM, in Maryland raw milk sales for pet milk are legal, and an individual has the freedom to decide to consume pet food, although in my household we are placing significant restrictions on my 2 year old when he decides to sample the cat, dog, or chicken feed.

I'm not talking about the time and effort on the part of the customer (and yes, that it what they actually are, not some "club member")

I'm talking about all the time and effort on the part of Miller to set up all these fake cow shares, boarding fees, milking fees, shareholders, and so forth.

Just get an ordinary dairy license like all the other small dairies and avoid all that nonsense.

In some states these farm shares are quite popular and legitimate. I’ve heard of them in Oregon. Never used them, because it seems too complicated for me.

Sounds like PA doesn’t need them though, because of the fairly permissible regulations that they have compared to some states.

Such arrangements are illegal in Maryland. Selling is selling, and you cannot sell or transport it except to a licensed processor. Apparently, there is an exception for pet food. Now if you like to eat stuff labeled,"Not for Human Consumption " feel free.