Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

[Ken]

The Council of Trent is no longer accepted liturgically. Can you provide a link to the actual current CCC references at the Vatican website that support what you claim? Be sure to also include those sections of the current CCC that reference ecumenicism and joint ecumenical efforts.

I can provide you with a real life example. Recently there was a scandal in Arizona where the Catholic Church determined that thousands of baptisms were invalid because as priest used one wrong word. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... wrong-word. For years, he mistakenly using the phrase ‘we baptize you’ instead of ‘I baptize you’.

Examples from mass media do not qualify as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. They are merely opinions. I asked for the links from the Vatican website which is authoritative.

Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... lic-church In the section on baptism you will find that yes, the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that all baptisms must be conducted under the auspices of the Catholic church and using the exact language that they specify.

But you should already know this.

[barnhart]

Max, there seems to be a pattern with you of asserting Catholic doctrine without citation but dismissing challenges as unofficial. You can't have it both ways. Well, I guess you can but not logically or convincingly.

[MaxPC]

I can provide you with a real life example. Recently there was a scandal in Arizona where the Catholic Church determined that thousands of baptisms were invalid because as priest used one wrong word. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... wrong-word. For years, he mistakenly using the phrase ‘we baptize you’ instead of ‘I baptize you’.

Examples from mass media do not qualify as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. They are merely opinions. I asked for the links from the Vatican website which is authoritative.

Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... lic-church In the section on baptism you will find that yes, the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that all baptisms must be conducted under the auspices of the Catholic church and using the exact language that they specify.

But you should already know this.

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Examples from mass media do not qualify as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. They are merely opinions. I asked for the links from the Vatican website which is authoritative.

Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... lic-church In the section on baptism you will find that yes, the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that all baptisms must be conducted under the auspices of the Catholic church and using the exact language that they specify.

But you should already know this.

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

So, you know more than the US conference of Catholic Bishops? I see.,….

[MaxPC]

Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... lic-church In the section on baptism you will find that yes, the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that all baptisms must be conducted under the auspices of the Catholic church and using the exact language that they specify.

But you should already know this.

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

So, you know more than the US conference of Catholic Bishops? I see.,….

I never said that and you know I did not say that. Feeling out of sorts today, JM?

[Soloist]

Given that you have never claimed any ministerial position, is it really that far fetched to ask for proof from a random Anonymous person on the internet for doctrinal positions?

Ken, who is less anonymous then yourself provided a link you disputed. So at the moment, it’s your words against a ordained Catholic.

[Ken]

Examples from mass media do not qualify as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. They are merely opinions. I asked for the links from the Vatican website which is authoritative.

Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church. https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... lic-church In the section on baptism you will find that yes, the Catholic church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that all baptisms must be conducted under the auspices of the Catholic church and using the exact language that they specify.

But you should already know this.

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a published book that is available to all Catholics. There are no secret Vatican footnotes. But then you knew that didn't you?

I pointed to the version published by the US Council of Bishops because it is a better and more readable English version than that found on the actual Vatican web site. The Vatican web site actually looks like something published on GeoCities ca. 1998. And is the same thing, just less readable. But knock yourself out, here it is: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The Catholic Church does not rely on uneducated fly-by-night self-appointed Evangelical preachers to do its teachings and baptisms in Brazil or anywhere else. That is simply a fact. Which the story that started this thread actually makes quite clear by quoting from actual Catholic authorities.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

So, you know more than the US conference of Catholic Bishops? I see.,….

I never said that and you know I did not say that. Feeling out of sorts today, JM?

Ok, let’s cut to the chase scene:

Do you have the authority to grant an imprimatur?
Has your ordinary given you permission to teach in the name of the Catholic Church?

If not, what you are presenting is the doctrine of Max, and not necessarily that of the Catholic Church. In other words, you have no authority to speak on behalf of the Catholic Church.

(Asking such a question of a Mennonite would be the height of absurdity)

[Judas Maccabeus]

The mission I was formerly serving under had works in Venezuela. In the former Orinoco river mission, they were seeing huge growth as well. They were looking for Bible school/Seminary prepared teachers, not direct missionaries. Reason: the local evangelists/pastors were far better than we could ever be, they were helped by training, most of it “in service “.

The situation was similar to that the article describes, except the priest made a bit more visits than that. Still, they were growing at an astonishing pace.

[HondurasKeiser]

Absolutely fascinating article in the Washington Post today about the battle between the Catholic Church and Evangelicals in the Brazilian Amazon. This is a gift-link so should bypass the paywall: https://wapo.st/3UIhrYO

Here is the regular link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in ... rotestant/

Take-home message for me? The Catholic Church is absolutely handicapping itself by its current structure of church leadership by outside priests. In this particular case the story is about a remote village that the regional priest can only visit once a year for one annual mass. What kind of Christianity is that? Ridiculous to think that is an actual functioning church when they only meet once a year. Unless Catholicism can actually figure out how to be present in such communities, this story will continue across the world. And probably the only way they can do that is through married priests recruited locally.

Of course Evangelicals who actually live in the community are going to beat them out when the Catholic Church doesn't even show up for 364 days out of 365.

When the rains finally receded, Father Moisés Oliveira pulled his motorboat out into the swollen Purus River and pointed it downstream. Chugging down muddy waters toward the next community on his schedule, the Catholic priest felt uncertain. He’d heard all about the problems in São Miguel.

Like so many other isolated settlements scattered throughout the Amazon rainforest, São Miguel was historically Catholic. Not that long ago, when Father Moisés would make his annual journey there, his presence was a community event — the only time when the people of São Miguel could attend Mass, have their babies baptized and make confession. The squat church could never fit all the faithful.

But that was before the arrival of an evangelical Protestant pastor in early 2020, before the opening of the community’s first evangelical church, before a fever of conversions split the community and turned it against itself. Longtime friends stopped talking. Families fractured. Suspicion and rumor spread about the Devil and death. When a 12-year-old girl was found dead in 2020, hanging from her porch rafters, Catholics saw a terrible accident. But evangelicals whispered of suicide and a demon that the pastor said was stalking the community.

The priest looked across the waters and saw São Miguel up ahead, a line of shacks rising upon an escarpment. At the far end, where forest nipped at the village, was one of its newest buildings. Painted white and blue, the pastor’s evangelical church gleamed like a beacon in the day’s falling light.

Father Moisés hadn’t met the pastor, nor heard him preach, but his charisma was no secret. Evangelicals said they’d never heard anyone speak of God as he did. Thin and tanned, hands calloused from years of wielding a chain saw, the pastor looked no different from thousands of others struggling to survive along the Purus. But followers said he’d been touched by divine providence. He was rumored to have banished malevolent spirits and cured illnesses. He claimed to be illiterate but somehow read the Bible with fluency. Wherever he went, Catholics renounced their church and followed him.

The next day, Father Moisés would step up to the altar of the Catholic church and be forced to reckon with the pastor’s impact. He didn’t know how many faithful he’d find in the pews at the annual Mass or whether the community could still even be considered Catholic. He could only be sure that whatever was happening in São Miguel was not unique to it.

In his 36 years, Father Moisés had witnessed a marked retreat of Catholicism across Latin America, where evangelical Protestants were increasingly challenging its historic dominance. The collapse had been particularly swift in the priest’s own Brazil — the church’s strongest redoubt by measure of Catholic adherents. His vast, deeply Christian country, whose Catholic roots reached back to Portuguese colonization, was now being reborn evangelical.

In the roughly two decades since he entered seminary, the number of evangelical churches had tripled, according to the Institute of Applied Economic Research, and now accounted for 7 out of 10 religious establishments. Nearly 180 million of his fellow Brazilians — 84 percent of the population — were baptized Catholic, Vatican statistics show. But so many had turned away from his church that soon, demographers say, if not already, Brazil would for the first time no longer be majority-Catholic.

. . .

read the whole thing.

Ken, this is fascinating and thank you for the gift link. I see this at work in Honduras as well. I could speak in broad strokes but that's just my observations over the last 15 years here and not terribly scientific. I can give a specific example that I think is emblematic of the change from Catholic to Evangelical/Pentecostal (not Protestant like Lutheran or Reformed).

My family and I live in a mountain village above the city (and diocese) of La Ceiba. The village has a Catholic Church that was occasionally visited by a priest from the city but with no regularity. 12 years ago, a mega-church from Louisiana sent missionaries to our village and they started a thriving congregation that is charismatic, exciting, highly program-itized (something for each demographic on a given day of the week), does quite a bit outreach and hosts small groups of doctors and workers from the LA mother church a number of times throughout the year. In the meantime, the Catholic population shrank and shrank (being drawn to the new evangelical church) so the diocese stopped sending a priest. I asked the Catholic bishop about the situation last year when we were in an event together - I know there are still Catholic families in the village - and he blamed a shortage of priests and too many parishes. He acknowledged that it was a hard and sad thing but he seemed resigned to the fact that his church just didn't have the resources to minister to all of their people.