"English" who join the Amish

[Josh]

#1, didn’t expect to sign in today and see Ken agreeing with some of old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

I don't think I'm agreeing with old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

I just don't think that training or expecting girls and young women to smile at every strange guy out there is necessarily the best advice in this day and age. The world is full of creepy guys who may not respect boundaries.

The advice was to never smile at all.

I think it’s fine to expect service workers to smile and be friendly. If men then do bad things that is their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately. The idea that women who are service workers should be grumpy and unpleasant for their “safety” seems rather absurd.

Maybe a store could open whose service workers are ugly women and ugly men, but who are friendly and smile. They’d have to have a policy of “Sorry, we don’t hire attractive women here because a creepy guy might creep on you.” I would prefer to go to such a store actually.

[temporal1]

The advice was to never smile at all.

I think it’s fine to expect service workers to smile and be friendly. If men then do bad things that is their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately. The idea that women who are service workers should be grumpy and unpleasant for their “safety” seems rather absurd.

Maybe a store could open whose service workers are ugly women and ugly men, but who are friendly and smile. They’d have to have a policy of “Sorry, we don’t hire attractive women here because a creepy guy might creep on you.” I would prefer to go to such a store actually.

In the past, pretty smiling young men+women had the backup of management and security. And, the conscientious public.
Today, no one can count on backup from anywhere, criminals are catered to in courts, whether for theft, assault, murder ..

It’s been like a godless hormone-fueled fraternity game of “hey, bro, how can we mess up social order?” since about 2008 or so, worsening every year. No sign it’s coming to an end.

It’s like a video game put into real life.

[ken_sylvania]

I think it’s fine to expect service workers to smile and be friendly. If men then do bad things that is their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

Is that how you operate in other aspects of life? For instance, is there any place you would advise your wife to stay away from for the sake of safety, or do you take the position that she should go wherever she wants without considering safety risks, because if men do bad things such as rob or assault her, that it's their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

The idea that women who are service workers should be grumpy and unpleasant for their “safety” seems rather absurd.

Yes, that is a rather absurd idea. Where do you get all these absurd ideas you dream up. This particular absurd idea isn't promoted anywhere in any R&S literature or by even the most extreme old school Nationwide Fellowship folks that I've ever heard of.

You claim to believe that lying is a sin, but when you make these extreme statements implying that a person or organization holds an extreme position that they do not in fact hold, that sure looks like lying to me.

[Josh]

I think it’s fine to expect service workers to smile and be friendly. If men then do bad things that is their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

Is that how you operate in other aspects of life? For instance, is there any place you would advise your wife to stay away from for the sake of safety, or do you take the position that she should go wherever she wants without considering safety risks, because if men do bad things such as rob or assault her, that it's their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

I have never told my wife to have a grouchy grumpy face as a safety measure. If it’s not safe enough somewhere if you’re being friendly and show a smile… it’s probably best to just not be there at all.

The idea that women who are service workers should be grumpy and unpleasant for their “safety” seems rather absurd.

Yes, that is a rather absurd idea. Where do you get all these absurd ideas you dream up. This particular absurd idea isn't promoted anywhere in any R&S literature or by even the most extreme old school Nationwide Fellowship folks that I've ever heard of.

You claim to believe that lying is a sin, but when you make these extreme statements implying that a person or organization holds an extreme position that they do not in fact hold, that sure looks like lying to me.

If it would make you feel better I’ll locate a copy of Dear Princess and transcribe the exact text.

[Josh]

In the past, pretty smiling young men+women had the backup of management and security. And, the conscientious public.
Today, no one can count on backup from anywhere, criminals are catered to in courts, whether for theft, assault, murder ..

It’s been like a godless hormone-fueled fraternity game of “hey, bro, how can we mess up social order?” since about 2008 or so, worsening every year. No sign it’s coming to an end.

It’s like a video game put into real life.

Very well said t1. Society should be one where women can feel safe being friendly and smiling.

If they are assaulted, attacked, or stalked, then there should be repercussions for that. But you’re right: instead we seem to have a new social order where assaulters can do whatever they want.

[temporal1]

i see plenty of grumpies where i shop, clerks+public. i hope people will keep showing up, for work and to shop.
pay has never been higher .. pirated by inflation. people are worried+stressed. distressed.

they are also kind. a smile or courtesy is appreciated. most know everyone is stressed, that it’s not isolated.

strangely, following obama’s 2008 election, there was a palpable public positive energy (in my area). it was interesting.
too bad it didn’t work as “hoped.”

[ken_sylvania]

I think it’s fine to expect service workers to smile and be friendly. If men then do bad things that is their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

Is that how you operate in other aspects of life? For instance, is there any place you would advise your wife to stay away from for the sake of safety, or do you take the position that she should go wherever she wants without considering safety risks, because if men do bad things such as rob or assault her, that it's their responsibility and should be dealt with appropriately.

I have never told my wife to have a grouchy grumpy face as a safety measure. If it’s not safe enough somewhere if you’re being friendly and show a smile… it’s probably best to just not be there at all.

The idea that women who are service workers should be grumpy and unpleasant for their “safety” seems rather absurd.

Yes, that is a rather absurd idea. Where do you get all these absurd ideas you dream up. This particular absurd idea isn't promoted anywhere in any R&S literature or by even the most extreme old school Nationwide Fellowship folks that I've ever heard of.

You claim to believe that lying is a sin, but when you make these extreme statements implying that a person or organization holds an extreme position that they do not in fact hold, that sure looks like lying to me.

If it would make you feel better I’ll locate a copy of Dear Princess and transcribe the exact text.

Actually that would make me feel better. If you can locate a copy of Dear Princess and quote the section verbatim where it says young women should be "grumpy and unpleasant for their safety" then I will apologize for saying that I think you are a liar.

[Ken]

In the past, pretty smiling young men+women had the backup of management and security. And, the conscientious public.
Today, no one can count on backup from anywhere, criminals are catered to in courts, whether for theft, assault, murder ..

It’s been like a godless hormone-fueled fraternity game of “hey, bro, how can we mess up social order?” since about 2008 or so, worsening every year. No sign it’s coming to an end.

It’s like a video game put into real life.

Very well said t1. Society should be one where women can feel safe being friendly and smiling.

If they are assaulted, attacked, or stalked, then there should be repercussions for that. But you’re right: instead we seem to have a new social order where assaulters can do whatever they want.

Yes, we should live in a society in which women should be able to smile or not smile, dress how they want, go where they want, have whatever careers that they want without the threat of harassment (or worse) from men.

But we don’t live in that society, do we?

I’m not sure where Temp came up with the year 2008. Is that just Obama derangement syndrome? In point of fact, the rates of sexual assault have been on a declining trend since the 1990s although there seems to have been an anomalous spike around 2018. But it it also depends on your definitions. I won’t toss out a bunch of graphs and statistics, you can look them up yourself. The “me too” movement first started around 2006 and culminated with powerful people like Harvey Weinstein being brought down in the 20-teens which would not have happened in earlier decades. So I would argue that we are actually moving AWAY from a society in which assaulters have free license. Much to the dismay of a lot of powerful men who were used to having free rein. Schools and colleges are also far more attune to the issue today than in decades past when it was more “boys will be boys”

The world that we do live in is one in which young women are constantly under the male gaze when in public and there are precautions that they need to take in terms of when and where they go places and how they interact with strangers. That has frankly always been the case. To think otherwise is naive. It is up to all of us, but especially men, to change it.

None of this is the FAULT of women. It is the fault of men. But being angry about it or indignant about it doesn’t change anything. My youngest daughter will be going off to college in about 8 months and I have had a lot of conversations with her about this very topic. Be smart, don’t trust strange guys or even guys you think you might know, don’t be alone in the wrong places, be aware of your surroundings, etc. etc. She knows all this but it is good to get reminders anyway.

[Josh]

The original context was someone complaining that Amish (and Holdeman) people don’t smile much and seem unfriendly in public.

Somehow we have driven all the way to the destination that it’s actually good to have a cranky, grumpy appearance to repel random men who (apparently) are gong to be stalkers or worse.

[ken_sylvania]

The original context was someone complaining that Amish (and Holdeman) people don’t smile much and seem unfriendly in public.

Somehow we have driven all the way to the destination that it’s actually good to have a cranky, grumpy appearance to repel random men who (apparently) are gong to be stalkers or worse.

That's an interesting destination you have driven to. I have to assume it is a lonely place as none of the other participants in this discussion have gotten there yet.