Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

[Judas Maccabeus]

Did it occur to any of you that in many countries foreigners cannot work in the local economy? Therefor if they are to eat, they must be paid from home. Similar, if they have to make a living trading in the local economy, it opens them to charges of exploitation. That is largely the reason why missionaries are supported from home.

That wasn't the case in Liberia or Ghana. In both of those countries there were long term missionaries who helped provide for their families by working in the local economy. The same is true in Belize.

I should add that in Liberia it wasn't conservative Anabaptists who did this but in Ghana it was and in Belize it's ongoing.

It varies by country. Where I was, we were limited to the institution that fronted for your visa. Only certain occupations could get a residence permit/work permit at all. If I recall correctly, in Jordan you had to prove you did not displace a potential Jordanian.

[Ernie]

I'm not aware that this has ever been tried but I'm curious why it hasn't, given all the NT teachings on this matter.

Christians throughout the millennia have had a habit of emphasizing one teaching, and trying to force all other teachings to be interpreted through the lens of the teaching they emphasize.

Example: Brethren emphasize "baptism for the remission of sins". All other verses about baptism get brought in under that trump card.

Mennonites emphasize "testimony of a good conscience" and force all verses about baptism to fall in line under this emphasis.

Some thing happens with salaried preachers, both those for it and those against it.


With all of these matters, very few people are willing to stop and say "What if we didn't do this and instead embrace all the various teachings on the matter and let them carry their own wight, rather than try to force them under one teaching?"

[Neto]

Oddly, the only NT “minister” being mentioned here as having been “fully supported” operated in a trade to support himself, so as to NOT depend on those to whom he was ministering.

I would agree that Jesus didn’t talk about the need to be supported, but as far as the Scripture goes, there is no evidence that he continued to work as a carpenter after he began his ministry. The evidence, in fact, suggests that he was fully supported by various people.

It is true, as has been said here by various ones, that most congregations that “fully” support their pastor only have a single man in that role. In the congregations of that type where I have attended, the pastor’s wife also put a lot of time and effort into service for the congregation, just confined to women’s and children’s ministry. This word that gets thrown around, “hireling” is very offensive. I have never know a paid pastor who did not have a heart-centered focus in his work. The only disadvantage I have even seen with a paid pastorate is the sense (on the part of the church members) that “the pastor can’t identify with what I go through, because he doesn’t have to go to work everyday.” True there can be some truth to this, because the pastor doesn’t (or shouldn’t) need to be concerned about pleasing a “boss” who doesn’t exhibit a Christian attitude.

Another disadvantage where a congregation can only support a single paid pastor is that sometimes a pastor does not have all of the gifts necessary to take the congregation on to where it needs to go, after having reached a certain point. (One pastor I knew well resigned because he felt that someone else could fill certain needs in the congregation better than he, and so he went on to another congregation, one that needed help in the areas of his gifting. On the other side, it is an advantage that such a pastor is willing to uproot his family and leave long-time friends, so that another servant of God can supply the missing things. Where as lay-ministers are in their own community, and seldom willing to leave. In fact, it is very difficult for them to do so, because they usually own a business, or would be faced with the difficulty of finding another comparable job in a distant location.

“Hiring and firing”: In the MB conference, there is a periodic meeting where either the church board, or the congregation itself, gives a “vote of confidence” regarding the pastor. If he does not receive a certain percentage, he will either voluntarily resign, or the conference will pull him out. (I have never seen an instance of that latter case, and only once saw a pastor resign because he had lost the confidence of the congregation. And in that case, he returned to that congregation as pastor some years later.)

I want to make it clear that I am not saying this in criticism of the lay-minister arrangement, but one of our pastors in the MB church back home kept us children for close to a week, when my parents needed to travel across the state for special family needs. Spent a good part of a night with the pastor & his family in the cellar at the pastor’s house, during a tornado. We were sometimes invited over for meals at another pastor’s house, and once I was invited over by myself, w/o my parents or siblings. Here, as far as I can recall, with the lay-minister system, we have only been in the home of one of our ministers. And we were missionaries on furlough.

One more memory that just came to mind - My Dad started building a new house for us (they were renting at the time) when I was around 8 years old. I remember that the pastor was also up on the roof, punting roofing nails, along with many of the other men in the congregation, to get it finished before the Oklahoma winds tore off the tar paper, or it all got soaked in a down-pour. The pastor before that, I remember him out behind the church house, helping strip the deteriorated finish off of the used pews that were to be installed. He was also the one who cut holes in the basement floor, when water pressure underneath was threatening to upset the building. And, it was the pastor who was serving there when I was the church custodian who always set the thermostat each Sunday morning, and he who discovered the fellowship hall in a few inches of water one Sunday morning, when a pipe had frozen & burst in the kitchen ceiling. (And, helped my dad & I scoop it all up, to be ready for Sunday school classes there.)

[GaryK]

I'm not aware that this has ever been tried but I'm curious why it hasn't, given all the NT teachings on this matter.

Christians throughout the millennia have had a habit of emphasizing one teaching, and trying to force all other teachings to be interpreted through the lens of the teaching they emphasize.

Example: Brethren emphasize "baptism for the remission of sins". All other verses about baptism get brought in under that trump card.

Mennonites emphasize "testimony of a good conscience" and force all verses about baptism to fall in line under this emphasis.

Some thing happens with salaried preachers, both those for it and those against it.


With all of these matters, very few people are willing to stop and say "What if we didn't do this and instead embrace all the various teachings on the matter and let them carry their own wight, rather than try to force them under one teaching?"

Well said.

How do we change to this way of thinking as conservative Anabaptists?

As it relates to the topic of salaried pastors, I can think of scenarios where what might work best in one church would probably never work in another one but I believe whatever the scenario might be, the NT teachings on this matter can be honored.

[NedFlanders]

I think first you’ll have to find and showing CA’s Scripture that supports the idea of paid pastors. I’ve only seen the opposite emphasis against such. So yeah let’s follow the biblical model but it seems we may be miles apart?

[Josh]

If you change the thinking of conservative Anabaptists, they won’t be conservative anymore. For an obvious example of this, in the CMC/RNoC, congregations have transitioned to paying their pastors. It is a useful case study to learn the changes this brings about.

The term “hireling” comes from scripture:

“But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.”

The process of hiring and and paying a pastor results in, well, a hireling. A church puts together a pastoral search committee. Candidates are selected and invited to come. They usually preach a sermon. Then the congregation or board votes on whom they like best, and a job offer with a salary is made.

[Ernie]

How do we change to this way of thinking as conservative Anabaptists?

Do some interviews with churches who hire pastors one day per week or support them otherwise so that they don't have to work a job 40 hours per week. Then write a book about it or do a series of interviews on Anabaptist Perspectives. And produce an article for Anabaptist Viewpoint.

In the early church, being ordained as an elder meant leaving your job and becoming fully involved in the church. Elders were expected to live a life of sacrifice and life of poverty, basically. If we did that today, it would take care of many unhealthy motives for wanting to be a paid preacher.

[GaryK]

I think first you’ll have to find and showing CA’s Scripture that supports the idea of paid pastors. I’ve only seen the opposite emphasis against such. So yeah let’s follow the biblical model but it seems we may be miles apart?

I can think of a few scriptures that suggest supporting those who labor in Kingdom work, starting with something Jesus said.

Matthew 10:9-10 NKJV 9 "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 "nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Galatians 6:6 NKJV 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 NKJV 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

All of these passages seem to suggest that the idea of supporting those who labor in Kingdom work should come from those who benefit from that work rather than the one doing the work expecting or asking for the support.

[GaryK]

If you change the thinking of conservative Anabaptists, they won’t be conservative anymore. For an obvious example of this, in the CMC/RNoC, congregations have transitioned to paying their pastors. It is a useful case study to learn the changes this brings about.

The term “hireling” comes from scripture:

“But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.”

The process of hiring and and paying a pastor results in, well, a hireling. A church puts together a pastoral search committee. Candidates are selected and invited to come. They usually preach a sermon. Then the congregation or board votes on whom they like best, and a job offer with a salary is made.

I don't subscribe to the way of thinking that says If you change the thinking of cA's they won't be conservative anymore. I can think of many ways that cA's could change their thinking and be more in line with NT Kingdom values.

Again, we're not talking about the way Evangelicals or more liberal Mennonites do it. Conservative Anabaptists don't do it that way. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I'm not proposing an Evangelical model.

[NedFlanders]

I think first you’ll have to find and showing CA’s Scripture that supports the idea of paid pastors. I’ve only seen the opposite emphasis against such. So yeah let’s follow the biblical model but it seems we may be miles apart?

I can think of a few scriptures that suggest supporting those who labor in Kingdom work, starting with something Jesus said.

Matthew 10:9-10 NKJV 9 "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 "nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Galatians 6:6 NKJV 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 NKJV 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

All of these passages seem to suggest that the idea of supporting those who labor in Kingdom work should come from those who benefit from that work rather than the one doing the work expecting or asking for the support.

I would view all those scripture to encourage brotherhood support - not paid pastors. The two to me are really very different.