Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

[Ernie]

After the names of the class are announced many of those present will share words of encouragement (particularly sisters with sisters, brethren with brethren). After the ordination there is opportunity for all present to greet the entire class with their spouses and to offer blessings, words of encouragement, or simply a greeting and warm handshake.

I have never been able to understand why they call the group of eligible people who go through the lot, a "class".

[ken_sylvania]

After the names of the class are announced many of those present will share words of encouragement (particularly sisters with sisters, brethren with brethren). After the ordination there is opportunity for all present to greet the entire class with their spouses and to offer blessings, words of encouragement, or simply a greeting and warm handshake.

I have never been able to understand why they call the group of eligible people who go through the lot, a "class".

Me neither, but then I have no idea either why a prickly fruit from the Philippines is called a pineapple.

[mike]

Should the vote of a borderline, carnally minded, flighty young man count the same as that a mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brother?

Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.

What about the person who isn't quite bad enough to have his voting privileges revoked?
In just about any other area in life if we were getting advice we would give greater weight to the voice of experience and demonstrated good sense.

Valid point. How would you suggest weighting the votes cast?

[Signtist]

I have never been able to understand why they call the group of eligible people who go through the lot, a "class".

You don't suppose they are whisked off to a secret location and given a rigorous training program?

[ken_sylvania]

Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.

What about the person who isn't quite bad enough to have his voting privileges revoked?
In just about any other area in life if we were getting advice we would give greater weight to the voice of experience and demonstrated good sense.

Valid point. How would you suggest weighting the votes cast?

I have no idea. I thought maybe one of the older, experienced, spiritually mature gentlemen from MN would have some wisdom to share!

[Ernie]

We believe that Gods people should be able to discern qualified men. It's only when there is multiple qualified men, that the lot is used, and that is because we have an overabundance, and we only need one.

I have never been able to understand with the ordination of Matthias the Apostle, and with cons. Anabaptist ordinations, how they conclude that only one is needed. Most ordained people I know feel overworked and would be glad to give some of their workload to others. If several men meet the qualifications for bishop/elder/overseer/presbyter, why not ordain them all? Why should only one of them take up the role of preaching?

It seems to me that The Church can always benefit from more evangelists, more shepherds, more administrators, more preachers, more church planters, etc, who have experienced the laying on of hands.

Now with deacons, I think it is good to only ordain as many as needed. Don't create a position if it is not needed. But if there is a need, ordain another deacon and give him a job description.

In our church, we have always had two deacons even though we are a small congregation. The men in our church who qualify for deacons already have a lot of other responsibilities, so it helps to share out the workload. Also it has been a blessing to have second person to consult in matters where wisdom is needed. Those from a Mennonite background can't understand why we need two deacons. I know the Brethren can understand our logic. In Mennonite churches, the deacon is likely to consult the ministers and bishops. But I think this is because Mennonites don't see the two offices as being much different, i.e. deacons are to serve tables so that the elders can give themselves to ministry of the Word and prayer. Mennonite bishops and ministers get involved in all sorts of things such as whether to pave the parking lot as well as moderating all sorts of business meetings.

In most Mennonite churches, there is only one deacon or an older one and a younger one. Typically, he has a really full load. Especially if he is also expected to preach. In some churches where deacons also preach, deacons can be ordained as ministers. So being a deacon and then getting ordained as minister actually lightens his load.

[Neto]

Should the vote of a borderline, carnally minded, flighty young man count the same as that a mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brother?

Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.

What about the person who isn't quite bad enough to have his voting privileges revoked?
In just about any other area in life if we were getting advice we would give greater weight to the voice of experience and demonstrated good sense.

Yes, I realized that your example was the two extremes, and the reality is often not so stark. In those cases it's much more murky.

[Ernie]

I have never been able to understand why they call the group of eligible people who go through the lot, a "class".

You don't suppose they are whisked off to a secret location and given a rigorous training program?

In many ultra-conservative Mennonite churches, those in the lot all meet together with the presiding officials for the interview process. Laundry is hung out in the view of everyone and any issues that have not been addressed with the "class" prior to this is addressed publicly. Then there are expectations of ordained folks that are not expected of the laity that are mentioned at this time and everyone in the "class" is expected to comply, even if they are not ordained. In this way they will be "supporting" the one who is ordained.

Is that being whisked off to a secret location and given a rigorous training program?

[Ernie]

Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.

What about the person who isn't quite bad enough to have his voting privileges revoked?
In just about any other area in life if we were getting advice we would give greater weight to the voice of experience and demonstrated good sense.

Valid point. How would you suggest weighting the votes cast?

I suggest that all those in the congregation who meet the character qualifications in the New Testament for elder and deacon, be the ones who determine the next leaders. This could include all the women who also meet the qualifications (even if we don't ordain women). Some people meet the character qualifications but are not well suited for shepherding, teaching, administrating soup kitchens (apportioning food in a just manner was the job of the first deacons), etc. Some people simply freeze up when they face irate people making all sorts of accusations. Others freeze up whenever several proposals are made and they don't know how to advance the discussion. Such folks do not function well as deacons and elders. But this does not mean that they do not possess the general character qualities for elders and deacons.

[Josh]

One interesting conclusion from this is that intermediate-conservative Mennonite ordination practices are markedly different than moderate-conservative + ultra-conservative ordination practices, which, surprisingly, share some commonalities. I would invite discussion about why this is the case.

The other interesting conclusion is that German Baptist ordination practices are almost identical to Holdeman ones (and Apostolic Christian ones). As far as I know, there was little to zero collusion between these three groups, yet they ended up with very similar practice. For the Brethren here - are ordinations considered a "joyful" time? In our circles they are a time of much rejoicing.

Like RZehr's group, we don't go through with an ordination until there has been a successful communion (which follows a week or two of successful revival meetings), so if there are church "problems" no ordinations will happen. Even if we do through with communion, the congregation has to feel strongly united and vote to proceed with an ordination.

Yet it was shared with me that in moderate and ultra circles (and perhaps intermediate too, I'm not sure), ordinations and church building projects are the two most difficult things for a congregation to go through.

These differences between these groups surprise me. Perhaps one of Ernie's charts showing differences between the different groups would be helpful.