Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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RZehr
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by RZehr »

ken_sylvania wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:19 pm Should the vote of a borderline, carnally minded, flighty young man count the same as that a mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brother?
I think that is sorted out by the amount of votes required to be in the lot. If you have so many borderline, carnally minded, flighty young men that they can come up with enough votes, well maybe that congregation deserves what they get. My observation is that all the nominees that reach the threshold minimum have actually all been fairly qualified. I've not seen a case where a blindingly disqualified person gathered the minimum votes, ever.

If the mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brothers has such weak influence in the church, and are held in such low esteem that the young aren't influenced by them, then perhaps the church deserves what they get.

If the young man above, and the elderly man above, both vote for the same person, the person gets the bare minimum? We have a nominee. I don't know that this scenario is really even all that rare.

One thing - I do know that here in the West at least, ordinations are generally not done when the church is in turmoil or fighting. The congregation will forgo ordinations for years to wait for unity before doing an ordination. Functionally, I believe that this helps minimize the potential and desire for unqualified nominees, voter mischief, and ministry hijinks.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Interestingly enough, we just ordained a new minister and a new deacon last week in our congregation. We use ballot voice from all members (m/f, young and old), which is counted by ministry who are invited in from another congregation. Any brother in communion (aka, in good standing) is considered eligible, although there is an implicit understanding (not a requirement) that it is best if he is already married, and has been a committed Christian for a few years.

While our process is technically based on simple majority, if there are a couple (or even several) brethren who receive similar amounts of votes, we are generally encouraged to put the ordination off for a little while and keep praying. This HAS happened in my lifetime a few times. And the amount of votes a brother receives when he is ordained is absolutely known only to those who counted them and it is never revealed - one of our elders told me they usually burn the ballots that evening after the service. Our mindset is that once a brother is chosen, it's simply a time to pull together, and frankly, nobody needs to look at the new brother and be tempted in our humanity to think something like "he only ever had the support of 2/3rds of the congregation anyway..." If there was ever any monkeying with the ballots behind the scene, neither we nor our local ministry would know, and we leave it in God's hands.

After the ballots are counted and the names of those chosen are announced, the ministers present also lay hands on the brother(s) chosen, and pray over them, and then all the members present greet the couple(s) chosen with a Holy Kiss, sometimes a hug, etc, and some words of encouragement. I'm curious what happens in some of your other congregations after the brother/sister have been announced...
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mike
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by mike »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:57 pm Interestingly enough, we just ordained a new minister and a new deacon last week in our congregation. We use ballot voice from all members (m/f, young and old), which is counted by ministry who are invited in from another congregation.
How are the ballots cast? Do the ministry know who voted for who?
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
Neto
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Neto »

ken_sylvania wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:19 pm Should the vote of a borderline, carnally minded, flighty young man count the same as that a mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brother?
Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by ken_sylvania »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:57 pm After the ballots are counted and the names of those chosen are announced, the ministers present also lay hands on the brother(s) chosen, and pray over them, and then all the members present greet the couple(s) chosen with a Holy Kiss, sometimes a hug, etc, and some words of encouragement. I'm curious what happens in some of your other congregations after the brother/sister have been announced...
Our church doesn't ordain sisters to the ministry. 8-)
After the names of the class are announced many of those present will share words of encouragement (particularly sisters with sisters, brethren with brethren). After the ordination there is opportunity for all present to greet the entire class with their spouses and to offer blessings, words of encouragement, or simply a greeting and warm handshake.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Heirbyadoption »

mike wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:06 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:57 pmInterestingly enough, we just ordained a new minister and a new deacon last week in our congregation. We use ballot voice from all members (m/f, young and old), which is counted by ministry who are invited in from another congregation.
How are the ballots cast? Do the ministry know who voted for who?
The deacons hand out blank ballots to everybody, including the ministers and deacons. After about 5 minutes, they bring bowls around that we drop them into, which are then handed to the visiting ministry in the presence of everybody, and those brethren then take them in to another room, count them, and report the brother's name who is chosen. Simple as that. Our local ministry have no idea who voted for who, at all.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

RZehr wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:17 pm Western Conservative Mennonite Fellowship:

The local ministry invites a preacher from a different church to come and help.

The congregation is reminded not to just nominate your family or your buddy. Congregation is encouraged to give a nomination instead of just wishing the Lords blessing on the process. But you are free to do either. There would be a problem if no one receives enough votes to hit the minimum threshold.

The ministry considers the amount of possible voters, and decides and announces the number of votes required for a person to be nominated. A large congregation may have this number set at 13 or a small half size congregation may be as low as 5. Members must be 18 years old in order to vote.

The ministry and the visiting preachers are in a private room. Each single voter, or each married couple walks into the room and verbally tells the ministry the name of their vote. Husband and wife are free each give different nominations, or the same nomination, each spouse is 1 vote.

The ministry does not ever privately disqualify a person who has been nominated. I would find that to be highly scandalous and problematic if they tinkered with the vote totals or anything like that without prior ratification of such a thing by the congregation. Never has one in my memory ever been disqualified at all. But I do reckon that the ministry would publicly disqualify someone if that happed. The threshold for disqualification though would probably be very high.

After the votes are taken, the ministry emerges from the room, and publicly reads the names of the nominees. We are never given vote total at all. So we don't know if someone got the majority, or if someone got the minimum threshold.

Then the nominees are interviewed by the ministry the next day. Sometimes a nominee will for personal reasons, remove himself at this point from the ordination process. In this case, the church is notified that the nominee has with drawn his name. I know one man that did this, and then the next ordination he was nominated again by the church, and this time went through with it and was ordained. He felt more at peace the second time.

We use the same number of songbooks as there are candidates. No "extra book". This is because we aren't asking God to decide if any of the men should or shouldn't be ordained. We are asking God to show us which of these qualified men it should be. The lot isn't more sacred than the voice of the church, but rather it is the deciding factor that causes contentions to cease.
If there is only one nominee that reaches the set number of votes, that man is ordained and no lot is necessary in any way to prove or confirm that he is Gods choice. We believe that Gods people should be able to discern qualified men. It's only when there is multiple qualified men, that the lot is used, and that is because we have an overabundance, and we only need one.
We follow this process at KMF as well, almost exactly.
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mike
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by mike »

Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:10 pm
mike wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:06 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:57 pmInterestingly enough, we just ordained a new minister and a new deacon last week in our congregation. We use ballot voice from all members (m/f, young and old), which is counted by ministry who are invited in from another congregation.
How are the ballots cast? Do the ministry know who voted for who?
The deacons hand out blank ballots to everybody, including the ministers and deacons. After about 5 minutes, they bring bowls around that we drop them into, which are then handed to the visiting ministry in the presence of everybody, and those brethren then take them in to another room, count them, and report the brother's name who is chosen. Simple as that. Our local ministry have no idea who voted for who, at all.
I like that.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
ken_sylvania
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by ken_sylvania »

Neto wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:07 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 3:19 pm Should the vote of a borderline, carnally minded, flighty young man count the same as that a mature, seasoned, spiritually minded elderly brother?
Such a person (the first) should not be invited to vote - he should be undergoing counseling.
What about the person who isn't quite bad enough to have his voting privileges revoked?
In just about any other area in life if we were getting advice we would give greater weight to the voice of experience and demonstrated good sense.
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Signtist
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Signtist »

ken_sylvania wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:08 pm Our church doesn't ordain sisters to the ministry. 8-)
We do. Well, technically we ordain couples. Only the men preach, though.
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