Cultural Separation from Parents

[Soloist]

Wife
So, I'm not going to get into the gender side of things, but having been public schooled, I would not say that sending your child to one, whether in a democratic or republican state, has ever really been a good place to have them learn Christian morals. I'm very blessed to have a tithe based private school and I see a difference in the outcome of the students.

At my school way before transgender stuff became popular, drugs and alcohol were rampant, and it was very uncommon to never have tried anything, let alone keep your chastity. 9th grade speech for example (In a republican area), would have the teacher have students act out skits, and if you were unfortunate enough to be paired up with a guy, the skit the teacher chose would inevitably include a kissing scene (we were supposed to be young children in ours, so my partner and I had me run away from him). English class one year forced us to read some book that had previously been on a banned books list for drugs and sexual stuff, and between that and how creepy I thought the teacher was, I ended up in Subway or the library during as many of his classes i could afford skipping (one of my more honorable reasons for ditching class). Some teachers were nicer and more respectful than these examples, so I'm not trying to characterize all public school teachers this way...

Even in the abstinence or antidrug clubs, it was rare for the students to actually keep to those convictions, and I think at least some of it was influence of other students/school and not just the parents or the child's natural bent. I mean, even Christian books and audio stories often have boyfriend/girlfriends in middle/high school normalized nowadays, and the abstinence club was not suggesting wait to date or even kiss, and do you really expect 14+ year olds to stick to "this and no further?"....Even in my dad's day, schools were not good environments, and drugs/sex/ect were normalized, and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back farther than that. There are a few exceptions in public school students, but I would attribute that more to the grace of God than anything else. Bad company corrupts good morals.

Basically, all I'm saying is that this is not the only thing that we should be concerned about with public schools, and whether or not your school is in conservative Florida or anywhere else, you would probably be better off finding a good church school or homeschooling.

[HondurasKeiser]

Matthew being called Matt is just not pertinent to this conversation.

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

I have students who are not trans and go by radically different names than the ones on their birth certificates.

I have an Uphorion that goes by Rueben
I have a Darian that goes by Pedro.
I have a Brooke that goes by Mari.
I have a Louis that goes by Jerome
I have had an Emily that goes by Neli.
I have had a Jose that goes by Joey.

Florida now requires schools to have permission slips for parents to give permission for schools to call kids by anything other than their formal names and I think that includes calling Matthew "Matt." I think that's an unnecessary level of bureaucracy and intrusion into people's lives.

In the US, parents can name their kids whatever they want, which is why Elon Musk can name his son X Æ A-Xii, but according to some of you, the kid can't ask his teachers to use a name that's pronounceable without his parent's permission.

Some countries regulate the names parents can give their children. Germany has an official list of approved names. There are no X Æ A-Xiis or boys named Sue running around there. I guess that's the next step. Should the state regulate the names you're allowed to call your children?

I also want to point out that schools using the preferred names of their students is not indoctrination and not remotely the same thing as forcibly separating children from their families to send them to boarding schools thousands of miles away in order to acculturate them into another culture.

Both you and Ken are engaging in an absurd kind of Motte and Bailey deflection of the actual issue. My name is Matthew Keiser. some of my teachers in school 20-30 years ago called me Matt, Matthew, Mr. Keiser or simply Keiser. None of my teachers ever felt the need to ask my parents for permission, rarely was I consulted for my preferred form of address. This is non-controversial and has been fairly common in human interactions since at least the 1960's when the dictates of public formality and decorum were tossed aside in the effort to be "more real" with each other.

The fact that Florida, bless their hearts, has seen fit to reinstate some sort of formulaic approach to the teacher-student relationship, at least insofar as addressing students is concerned; is a response on their part to certain teachers and school policies which sought to go beyond the simple informal use of nicknames or shortened names. These teachers and schools, either out of an overabundance of misplaced compassion or in service to the nouveau ideology of "Trans/Queerness", wanted to help students explore or affirm a "gender identity" that does not comport with reality, through the use of names that have nothing to do with their given name or their actual sex, and through the application of pronouns that either don't match the bodies to which they refer or appear as though they are in reference to alien lifeforms. This, the new name and pronouns, is the first step in the process of "Transitioning" - a word and idea that seems ubiquitous and for some perfectly quotidian, but only entered our lexicon and social imagination in any real way about a decade ago.

That you find this sad is encouraging as I too loathe bureaucratic intrusion into peoples' lives. However, Florida was responding to teachers' actions. If it hadn't been for the teachers/educational system attempting to subvert parents' authority and rights, such intrusion would be unnecessary.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[RZehr]

Parental right, child rights, neither are sacrosanct. Step back and let right, righteousness, be the guide. When parents, child, teacher, whomever, are wicked, they should be stopped. When parent, child, teacher, whomever, are doing right, that should be assisted.
The actual problem, is that people no longer are moored to any real righteousness. They don’t even know what it is many time, rather they only look to the laws of the land for guidance.

Parents have a right to be involved in the medical decisions of their children. Yes, absolutely. In fact, their rights (and those of their children) far exceed any state interest in overruling those rights which is happening right now in many states. And if some child wants to override the medical decisions of their parents there should generally be a formal legal process for this.

Let’s see just how absolute you hold this position in the future. When invariably a case comes along where your professional or other values, are at odds with what a parent desires to see for their child.

Most far right parents currently agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. But the zeitgeist doesn’t seem to be so sure.

[Ken]

Parental right, child rights, neither are sacrosanct. Step back and let right, righteousness, be the guide. When parents, child, teacher, whomever, are wicked, they should be stopped. When parent, child, teacher, whomever, are doing right, that should be assisted.
The actual problem, is that people no longer are moored to any real righteousness. They don’t even know what it is many time, rather they only look to the laws of the land for guidance.

Parents have a right to be involved in the medical decisions of their children. Yes, absolutely. In fact, their rights (and those of their children) far exceed any state interest in overruling those rights which is happening right now in many states. And if some child wants to override the medical decisions of their parents there should generally be a formal legal process for this.

Let’s see just how absolute you hold this position in the future. When invariably a case comes along where your professional or other values, are at odds with what a parent desires to see for their child.

Most far right parents currently agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. But the zeitgeist doesn’t seem to be so sure.

There are exceptions, but they are the extreme fringe ones. The faith healing folks who would rather see their child die than receive medically necessary treatment. the Munchausen by Proxy parents who want to give their children unnecessary and harmful medical treatments that they don't need. But those are circumstances when you would generally expect a court to intervene in that specific instance and not create general rules for everyone.

Older children also have some medical autonomy under the law that is separate from their parents that most states recognize. And I'm generally fine with this as well as long as it is the child making the decision to overrule the parent, and not the state making that decision. For example, lots of 17 year olds decide to get vaccinated even if their parents object and that is legal. I'm fine with that. Older children can also seek emancipation if they can demonstrate the maturity to manage their own decisions which I'm fine with too.

I object to the state making medical decisions that overrule a parent absent some extreme defined circumstances and some legal process like a court order.

So on this topic, no, schools or clinics or whatever should not be making medical decisions on behalf of children behind the backs of parents or overruling them. Nor should the state be generally overruling the rights of parents and children to seek medical care that the choose. So my position regarding LGBT trans kids would be:

1. No, schools or the state should absolutely NOT be involved in any medical treatment of children without the knowledge and consent of parents. And for situations where parents and children are at odds, we already have the legal process of emancipation they can use.

2. Likewise, the state should not be in the business of overruling the medical decisions of parents if they choose to seek some treatment for their child. That is an equal violation of parental rights as #1

[Ken]

I think it's completely reasonable for schools to notify parents if their child goes by an alternative name (and such nicknames or alternative names could be listed on the child's application for school).

When my parents went to school, nicknames weren't allowed. Everyone had to go by their first names. I think that promoted an atmosphere of respect.

But in any case, that's not the topic of this thread, despite Ken and Szdfan's attempts to change the topic.The topic is a child who is male or female who starts going by a different name belonging to the wrong sex.

As I posted upstream, this is about 1/3 of the total number of students who are going by different names or nicknames in my classes this year.

One (and just one) of these students might be LGBT/trans. I'm not really sure because it hasn't come up and I really don't care. Not my business. So which one of these students is going by the "wrong" name belonging to a different sex in your opinion?

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

[Josh]

I think it's completely reasonable for schools to notify parents if their child goes by an alternative name (and such nicknames or alternative names could be listed on the child's application for school).

When my parents went to school, nicknames weren't allowed. Everyone had to go by their first names. I think that promoted an atmosphere of respect.

But in any case, that's not the topic of this thread, despite Ken and Szdfan's attempts to change the topic.The topic is a child who is male or female who starts going by a different name belonging to the wrong sex.

As I posted upstream, this is about 1/3 of the total number of students who are going by different names or nicknames in my classes this year.

One (and just one) of these students might be LGBT/trans. I'm not really sure because it hasn't come up and I really don't care. Not my business. So which one of these students is going by the "wrong" name belonging to a different sex in your opinion?

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

And that's not the subject of this thread. You could start a new thread to discuss nicknames, if you prefer.

[RZehr]

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

How do you know which of these are boys and which are girls?
Isn’t it verboten to make these assumptions these days?

[Ken]

I think it's completely reasonable for schools to notify parents if their child goes by an alternative name (and such nicknames or alternative names could be listed on the child's application for school).

When my parents went to school, nicknames weren't allowed. Everyone had to go by their first names. I think that promoted an atmosphere of respect.

But in any case, that's not the topic of this thread, despite Ken and Szdfan's attempts to change the topic.The topic is a child who is male or female who starts going by a different name belonging to the wrong sex.

As I posted upstream, this is about 1/3 of the total number of students who are going by different names or nicknames in my classes this year.

One (and just one) of these students might be LGBT/trans. I'm not really sure because it hasn't come up and I really don't care. Not my business. So which one of these students is going by the "wrong" name belonging to a different sex in your opinion?

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

And that's not the subject of this thread. You could start a new thread to discuss nicknames, if you prefer.

It is exactly what you said was the topic in your post above where you wrote: "The topic is a child who is male or female who starts going by a different name belonging to the wrong sex."

So which of these kids is going by a different name belonging to the wrong sex?

And by the way, not all LGBT/trans kids even change their names. Years ago I had a student named Hunter who seemed pretty obviously some degree of trans but just went by Hunter. I never got any paperwork or any requests for using different names, pronouns, bathrooms, etc. Hunter was just Hunter. My job was teaching biology to Hunter and not fussing about what his/her sexual identity was. Shrug. I was not hiding anything from Hunter's parents but neither was I calling them to report that Hunter wasn't conforming to traditional gender roles in school. If they didn't already know then they were horribly inattentive, clueless, and neglectful parents.

[Ken]

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

How do you know which of these are boys and which are girls?
Isn’t it verboten to make these assumptions these days?

No, it isn't verboten. You have to list the gender of your student when you register and enroll them for school.

Sex is listed on the electronic class record system where you do attendance and grades. So you can click on a student's name in the electronic gradebook and it brings up their whole profile which lists parents names, address ,phone numbers, previous schools, counselor's name, languages spoken at home, race/ethnicity, birth date, student ID, locker number, any medical or security alerts, and Gender.

And for 99% of students it is pretty obvious anyway.

But if the student is truly trans then the school may change the listed gender on the school record and even on the birth certificate. And honestly they just put down whatever the parent puts on the form when they register that student for school. School administrations are not in the business of conducting chromosome inspections to verify the listed gender of their students. Just like schools don't do genetic profiles to verify the race/ethnicity that parents list when they register students.

[RZehr]

I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

How do you know which of these are boys and which are girls?
Isn’t it verboten to make these assumptions these days?

No, it isn't verboten. You have to list the gender of your student when you register and enroll them for school.

Sex is listed on the electronic class record system where you do attendance and grades. So you can click on a student's name in the electronic gradebook and it brings up their whole profile which lists parents names, address ,phone numbers, previous schools, counselor's name, languages spoken at home, race/ethnicity, birth date, student ID, locker number, any medical or security alerts, and Gender.

And for 99% of students it is pretty obvious anyway.

But if the student is truly trans then the school may change the listed gender on the school record and even on the birth certificate. And honestly they just put down whatever the parent puts on the form when they register that student for school. School administrations are not in the business of conducting chromosome inspections to verify the listed gender of their students. Just like schools don't do genetic profiles to verify the race/ethnicity that parents list when they register students.

I see. I didn’t know that teachers and schools knew the gender at the beginning of the year. Why is that required?
If they require it at the beginning of the year, isn’t it something that must be of some import?