Poll: Is it religious persecution... ???

[Ernie]

Is it possible Josh is viewing close communion as close in regular personal relationships? That would seem to mimic closest to the last supper example giving to us by Christ. I don’t think Christs intent was to exclude a bunch of people but in the process of closely intimately relating to His disciples it did keep other believers out. It wasn’t offensive but they may have felt it as offensive?

If someone is close in belief and practice that still doesn’t mean they know me or I know them at much of a personal level. So partaking together when we don’t know each other well can make the closeness of communion less valuable as the sense of accountability in submission to a local body is decreased if we just commune with whoever has the same belief and practice. And a proper accountability to the body or the voice of the brotherhood has always been very important to Anabaptist beliefs- much more important than a personal offense.

Yes, knowing those we are communing with is the purpose for why we interview people prior to communion. The interview may be longer for strangers as compared with people we know better for this very reason. We want to know who we are communing with.

However, my observation of nearly 50 years is that even in churches where everyone knows each other very well and there is a high level of discipling and accountability, there are still people who are living in sin and hiding it. I'm working on some questions that will make it harder for people to hide their sins, but even with the best of questions, accountability and preaching, people can still be deceptive if they want to be.

[Ernie]

That is indeed how I view it. So I don't even feel a "right" to participate in another Holdeman communion service that is happening in a congregation near where I am travelling out of town, for example.

This is how most Mennonites view communion (my congregation only) but the Brethren have a very different concept of this and I have gained appreciation for their perspective the last ten years since I've been part of a church with a former Brethren family in it.

[Bootstrap]

If someone is close in belief and practice that still doesn’t mean they know me or I know them at much of a personal level. So partaking together when we don’t know each other well can make the closeness of communion less valuable as the sense of accountability in submission to a local body is decreased if we just commune with whoever has the same belief and practice. And a proper accountability to the body or the voice of the brotherhood has always been very important to Anabaptist beliefs- much more important than a personal offense.

This is a little like Catholics, who see communion as a sign of submission to the Pope.

But as I read the text, I don't think that's what 1 Corinthians 11 tells us. In fact, Paul criticizes them precisely for NOT taking communion with people who are not part of their sub-groups. I see no instruction in the Bible anywhere to limit communion only to people you know well and are in mutual submission with. Paul took Peter to task precisely for refusing to eat with Gentile believers that he did not know well - this was not specifically communion, but I think the same principle applies.

1 Corinthians 11 says the Corinthians had disunity and lack of consideration for one another during the observance of the Lord's Supper. Paul emphasizes the need for self-examination and recognizing the body of Christ as a whole. In context, that means he was encouraging them to have communion with people they were NOT yet in deep communion with.

So to me, this is a lot like the Catholics, who add new terms and conditions to communion, then exclude others who do not have the Catholic understanding of submission to the Pope or the conservative Anabaptist understanding of accountability to the body or the voice of the brotherhood (in the historical Hutterite understanding of Gelassenheit). And in both cases, I think that is at odds with what the Bible teaches in 1 Corinthians 11. I realize that others here do not see it this way and believe they are being true to the Bible, but I do want to share the way I understand this.

Again, not persecution. But I don't think it's biblical. And I do think it hurts the body of Christ. And it hurts people. As several have shared.

[NedFlanders]

Is it possible Josh is viewing close communion as close in regular personal relationships? That would seem to mimic closest to the last supper example giving to us by Christ. I don’t think Christs intent was to exclude a bunch of people but in the process of closely intimately relating to His disciples it did keep other believers out. It wasn’t offensive but they may have felt it as offensive?

If someone is close in belief and practice that still doesn’t mean they know me or I know them at much of a personal level. So partaking together when we don’t know each other well can make the closeness of communion less valuable as the sense of accountability in submission to a local body is decreased if we just commune with whoever has the same belief and practice. And a proper accountability to the body or the voice of the brotherhood has always been very important to Anabaptist beliefs- much more important than a personal offense.

Yes, knowing those we are communing with is the purpose for why we interview people prior to communion. The interview may be longer for strangers as compared with people we know better for this very reason. We want to know who we are communing with.

However, my observation of nearly 50 years is that even in churches where everyone knows each other very well and there is a high level of discipling and accountability, there are still people who are living in sin and hiding it. I'm working on some questions that will make it harder for people to hide their sins, but even with the best of questions, accountability and preaching, people can still be deceptive if they want to be.

I think that is noble and right of you to make an effort towards clean communion (some people seem to be forgetting there are 10 chapters in Corinthians of which many are encouraging accountability and church discipline before they get to chapter 11).
However I do also think Christ gave us an example: it is recorded in 2 of the 4 Gospels that Judas Iscariot was there at communion. The example of the disciples not knowing who the betrayer was gives us the example of self examination but also that the efforts for a clean communion will not necessarily mean that there isn’t someone who partakes unworthily - but it doesn’t ruin communion for everyone else that they didn’t know - Christ knows - they aren’t hiding it from Him. This fact of an effort of clean communion with someone having hidden sin doesn’t change it for me that we should still imitate Christ in the last supper with close intimate communion that had other believers of same practice and belief put out.

[ohio jones]

That is indeed how I view it. So I don't even feel a "right" to participate in another Holdeman communion service that is happening in a congregation near where I am travelling out of town, for example.

This is how most Mennonites view communion (my congregation only) but the Brethren have a very different concept of this and I have gained appreciation for their perspective the last ten years since I've been part of a church with a former Brethren family in it.

Mennonites, when they know another church is having communion: Let's visit some other time.
Brethren, when they know another church is having lovefeast: Let's go!

Did I get that about right?

[Ernie]

That is indeed how I view it. So I don't even feel a "right" to participate in another Holdeman communion service that is happening in a congregation near where I am travelling out of town, for example.

This is how most Mennonites view communion (my congregation only) but the Brethren have a very different concept of this and I have gained appreciation for their perspective the last ten years since I've been part of a church with a former Brethren family in it.

Mennonites, when they know another church is having communion: Let's visit some other time.
Brethren, when they know another church is having lovefeast: Let's go!

Did I get that about right?

Yep, you've got it!

[Ernie]

However I do also think Christ gave us an example: it is recorded in 2 of the 4 Gospels that Judas Iscariot was there at communion. The example of the disciples not knowing who the betrayer was gives us the example of self examination but also that the efforts for a clean communion will not necessarily mean that there isn’t someone who partakes unworthily - but it doesn’t ruin communion for everyone else that they didn’t know - Christ knows - they aren’t hiding it from Him. This fact of an effort of clean communion with someone having hidden sin doesn’t change it for me that we should still imitate Christ in the last supper with close intimate communion that had other believers of same practice and belief put out.

There of course is the debate by scholars over the last two millennium as to whether Judas was part of the communion service.

[NedFlanders]

However I do also think Christ gave us an example: it is recorded in 2 of the 4 Gospels that Judas Iscariot was there at communion. The example of the disciples not knowing who the betrayer was gives us the example of self examination but also that the efforts for a clean communion will not necessarily mean that there isn’t someone who partakes unworthily - but it doesn’t ruin communion for everyone else that they didn’t know - Christ knows - they aren’t hiding it from Him. This fact of an effort of clean communion with someone having hidden sin doesn’t change it for me that we should still imitate Christ in the last supper with close intimate communion that had other believers of same practice and belief put out.

There of course is the debate by scholars over the last two millennium as to whether Judas was part of the communion service.

Are you saying Johns record is debatable?

John 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
John 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

[Ernie]

However I do also think Christ gave us an example: it is recorded in 2 of the 4 Gospels that Judas Iscariot was there at communion. The example of the disciples not knowing who the betrayer was gives us the example of self examination but also that the efforts for a clean communion will not necessarily mean that there isn’t someone who partakes unworthily - but it doesn’t ruin communion for everyone else that they didn’t know - Christ knows - they aren’t hiding it from Him. This fact of an effort of clean communion with someone having hidden sin doesn’t change it for me that we should still imitate Christ in the last supper with close intimate communion that had other believers of same practice and belief put out.

There of course is the debate by scholars over the last two millennium as to whether Judas was part of the communion service.

Are you saying Johns record is debatable?

John 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
John 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Luke says the cup was given "after they had eaten." No mention is made of when the bread was given.

Matthew and Mark say, "As they were eating Jesus took bread..." No mention is made of the cup being given after they had eaten.

Harmonizing these three, I think the bread was given during the meal and the cup at the end of the meal.

Paul says, "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

This seems to imply the same thing as the summary above from the other Gospels.

John does not go into detail about the supper but according to:

KJV/NKJV, John 13, Jesus washed the disciples feet after supper.
All other translations say that it was during supper that he washed their feet.

Judas "dipped the sop" with Jesus, but that could be a different eating of bread than the bread Jesus broke to the disciples.

Many people have tried to harmonize all of these various things but I don't think we have enough information to make a hard and fast conclusion. You are welcome to try to convince me in a new thread.

[Heirbyadoption]

I attended a Mid-West church’s baptism yesterday and extended the right hand of fellowship to the 4 converts and the Christian greeting to one of them, plus to another member there who is someone I know.

I was under the impression from occasionally attending down in Livingston/Winton back in the day that the COGICM did not permit their members to greet those outside of the Church (as defined by their membership). Is that incorrect, has it changed, or does your conscience simply lead you to disregard that particular restriction?

The hard and fast restriction is against participating in another organisations’s communion. One should be very cautious to restrict the greeting to those who are “brothers in Christ” or “brothers in the faith”, the former being people who aren’t cogicm church members. One needs to have a rather strong acquaintance with what is happening in someone’s spiritual life to feel that degree of confidence when they aren’t fellow church members, particularly if they are stuck in a church that is frankly apostate.

Interesting. Like I said, I had long been under the impression there was a hard and fast restriction for COGICM members against greeting those outside the church (to which they made their baptismal vow, defined in practice by the COGICM membership) with the Holy Kiss. Thanks for clarifying otherwise.

On that note, does the COGICM have any formal explanation or writings for the concept of permitting members to greet nonHoldemans as brothers in Christ, but not commune with them (ie. why communion should be limited to only a portion of those whom you admittedly recognize as being "in Christ")? My question is actually for anybody or any group who practices (or grew up practicing) similar (will greet outside membership but only commune within), as this has been part of my study of late for an upcoming message on the practice of the Holy Kiss. Thanks in advance.