Bunny Trails

[Robert]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

socialism
noun
so·​cial·​ism ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Synonyms of socialism
1
: any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
If modern socialism was born in 19th-century Europe, it was subsequently shaped by, and adapted to, a whole range of societies.
—Michael Newman
Socialism is about a change in the means of production—so that the people who do the work are the ones who make the decisions about what gets produced and how.
—Sarah Jaffe
see also DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, GUILD SOCIALISM, UTOPIAN SOCIALISM
2
a
: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b
: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
Many socialists today believe that socialism is not inevitable but must be built slowly and laboriously by the political and economic actions of men and women seeking a freer and more just society.
—Richard Schmitt
compare CAPITALISM, COMMUNISM
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory that is transitional between capitalism and communism (see COMMUNISM sense 2c) and is distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Marx, we know, provided both a theory of society in which there would be a movement from feudalism through capitalism to socialism and an analysis of the nature of class exploitation under capitalism, and a sketch of the larger principles of a socialist society. Lenin would advance these ideas further …
—Carole Boyce Davies
see MARXISM

Communal living that is not voluntary is not in line with the individual choice of faith or life/lifestyle.

So socialism or Socialism are both forced systems. Voluntary communal living is not socialism. If it is so great, why are people forced to live within it?

[Szdfan]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

socialism
noun
so·​cial·​ism ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Synonyms of socialism
1
: any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
If modern socialism was born in 19th-century Europe, it was subsequently shaped by, and adapted to, a whole range of societies.
—Michael Newman
Socialism is about a change in the means of production—so that the people who do the work are the ones who make the decisions about what gets produced and how.
—Sarah Jaffe
see also DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, GUILD SOCIALISM, UTOPIAN SOCIALISM
2
a
: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b
: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
Many socialists today believe that socialism is not inevitable but must be built slowly and laboriously by the political and economic actions of men and women seeking a freer and more just society.
—Richard Schmitt
compare CAPITALISM, COMMUNISM
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory that is transitional between capitalism and communism (see COMMUNISM sense 2c) and is distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Marx, we know, provided both a theory of society in which there would be a movement from feudalism through capitalism to socialism and an analysis of the nature of class exploitation under capitalism, and a sketch of the larger principles of a socialist society. Lenin would advance these ideas further …
—Carole Boyce Davies
see MARXISM

Communal living that is not voluntary is not in line with the individual choice of faith or life/lifestyle.

So socialism or Socialism are both forced systems. Voluntary communal living is not socialism. If it is so great, why are people forced to live within it?

Small "s" socialism fits under the definition 2a which describes "a system of society or group living in which there is no private property." I can think of several groups that were voluntary in which there was no private property, but all property was held in common by the group. These weren't "forced systems" and the government wasn't involved.

Also, definition 1 mentions "egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective OR governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods." The definition also points to Utopian Socialism as an example.

Utopian Socialism was a 19th century movement that predated Marx and emphasized an idealized society. Most of these efforts were fanciful, but there were attempts at creating actual, functioning communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism

The Brotherhood Church in Britain and the Life and Labor Commune in Russia were based on the Christian anarchist ideas of Leo Tolstoy (1828–1910). Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1809–1865) and Peter Kropotkin (1842–1921) wrote about anarchist forms of socialism in their books. Proudhon wrote What is Property? (1840) and The System of Economic Contradictions, or The Philosophy of Poverty (1847). Kropotkin wrote The Conquest of Bread (1892) and Fields, Factories and Workshops (1912). Many of the anarchist collectives formed in Spain, especially in Aragon and Catalonia, during the Spanish Civil War were based on their ideas.

Many participants in the historical kibbutz movement in Israel were motivated by utopian socialist ideas. Augustin Souchy (1892–1984) spent most of his life investigating and participating in many kinds of socialist communities.

These were voluntary systems and not "forced systems." Many of these communities also adopted anarchist ideals and rejected government involvement.

[Szdfan]

Came across this. Not taking it seriously, but decided to troll Robert.

[temporal1]

oops. forgot the OP:

And I remain puzzled by the term Judeo-christian.

The term didn't exist until the 19th Century and wasn't popularized until the 1930s as part of trying to draw a distinction between the US and Britain with fascist, anti-Semitic Germany. Ironically, it was a term popularized by liberals, like George Orwell.

It's a rather loaded, problematic term that has had a mixed response from the Jewish community. On the one hand, the term did help American Jews move closer to the mainstream. On the other hand, it does co-op Jews into a Christian view of the world that they don't necessarily believe they are a part of. Jews don't necessarily see themselves as part of a continuous stream with Christians.
We're the heretics to them.

Without researching, this sounds plausible. As time has gone on, my sense is that the term is used to distinguish Jewish and Christian believers from non-Christian religions, Hindu, Muslim, etc., and atheism, etc. .. In the not distant past, there was no everyday need to recognize non-Christians for a lot of people. The world has become “smaller” mostly due to technology.

From a purist Anabaptist pov, it could be said there were no Christian countries, whether Catholicism or EO, it could be said:
(jbg) “it isn't clear at all to me the the US govt has anything to do with Christianity.
It's origin isn't even compatible with what Jesus taught.”

No country is a church, Anabaptists wanted to recognize this distinction. Not typical thinking of the times.

The various personal writings of different founders are interesting, but, not representative of the majority or whole of what was drafted. They were men with flaws.

i agree, as imperfect as it all is, the U.S. was generally founded on Judeo-Christian principles, as opposed to atheism, Islam, or other. Even if the term was coined later, in response to 19-20th Century Germany.

These documents were largely drafted in a short amount of time, under duress, without technology we take for granted, without indoor plumbing, without the USPS. My guess is, they were largely preoccupied with trying to find language that would allow differing Christians to exist in some tolerance without killing each other. i doubt they were thinking “universally” or globally.

i believe, maybe like Quakers, there is an indwelling spirit that exists (John 1:9) .. i don’t even believe in atheists.
The U.S., wisely, was never conceived to be a church. And it wisely was never meant to deny God.

[temporal1]

OP P.1:

I'm just curious about the court case on religious freedom being heard by the Supreme Court this coming Tuesday.
The issue is regarding a postal worker in southern Lancaster County, Gerald Groff, who refused to work on Sundays.

The link below indicates he was a former Mennonite missionary. Does anyone know if he is still a Mennonite?

https://www.hcamag.com/us/specializatio ... ion/442806

Ancestry? Groffdales?

Findagrave / Hans Graf 1661-1746
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11282437/hans-graf

~OUR FAMILIES ANCESTRAL ROOTS~
Hans was said to have been married twice, first was to Ursula Neukomm about 1683, and believed to have had one child through the marriage. Then later re-married to Susanna Orndorf about 1700 and had what was believed to have been ten children along with her.

West Earl Township Lancaster, Pennsylvania - He was the first settler in 1717, named in his honor 1729 "Earl being the English of Graf."

A stone was finally placed at his grave site, but his grave was unknown for quite some time. But after much searching it later was discovered in the graveyard of the Groff Meeting House. It was marked with only a simple slab of sandstone with the initials "H G".

Inscription
HANS GRAF,
The first Settler,
Came from Switzerland A.D. 1696.
Settlement was made at the head of Groff's Run.
He purchased 1419 Acres of land from John
Richard, S Thomas Penn, for 141L. 18 S.
[equal to $686.80] along Groff's Run. He Built
a log Cabin on the old Groff farm A.D. 1717.
His purchase included the land on which the
Groffdale Meeting House is built.
Died A.D. 1746.

“Hans Graf, older memorial stone behind newer. Photo taken by Pat Baker on” …

[temporal1]

Government contracts (for all kinds of goods+services) are SOP / Standard Operating Procedure.
Lots of contracts are by bid. My understanding is, the lowest bid usually prevails.

Bribes, kick-backs, old school buddies are facts of life, nothing new. Nothing partisan. Money makes prostitutes.

One of the most insulting contracts in history was that given to a Canadian company for obamacare - if i recall, the head was an old school mate of michelle’s. It was so insulting to the entire country (unemployment was killer). Canada? Really? U.S. tech “not good enough?”

That rollout was one of the most BUNGLED endeavors ever experienced in the U.S.
i was part of it, not yet on Medicare.

Revealed: Michelle Obama's Princeton classmate is top executive at firm that that built disastrous Obamacare website after being awarded no-bid $93m contract
Michelle Obama’s Princeton classmate is an executive at the company that built Obamacare website
Toni Townes-Whitley is senior vice president at CGI Federal which earned contract to build the site. She joined in May 2010
The women are both members of the Association of Black Princeton Alumni
The Department of Health and Human Services reviewed only CGI’s bid for the Obamacare account even though four companies submitted bids
CGI became an approved government vendor in 2007
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... bsite.html
It was common knowledge at the time. (google does its best at rewriting)

[temporal1]

^^For context, my above post was to add to this b.t.:

Most road work around the country, even in Texas is done by private construction companies under contract with the state.

In fact, especially in Texas. TXDot does the design work but big contractors and construction companies do all the actual work. Like Alamo NEX Construction: https://www.alamonexconstruction.com/

In the video in the root post, the contractor advertises themselves. Maybe Texas contractors don't do this because they are afraid of what Texans would do to them if Texans knew who they are. So I may be wrong about the work being done by the state, but the rest of what I said still stands.

When you drive down I-35 they usually have signs up saying which contractor is building which section.

But they probably don't publicize it all that much because one of the biggest construction companies working in Texas is the Spanish firm Ferrovial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovial and https://www.ferrovial.com/en-us/business/construction/ Another big Texas one is Williams Brothers Construction: https://wbctx.com/

One only wonders how much money they have given to GOP politicians in Texas. Actually one doesn't have to wonder

https://www.opensecrets.org/officeholde ... d=11281947
https://www.opensecrets.org/officeholde ... d=11860515

I see between the governor and lt. governor, Williams Brothers Construction gave over $1 million. And that was just 2020 and before we even started looking at the legislature.

[Ken]

They adopted a dress standard of no prints, which made membership transfers from more conservative (and not Beachy) churches much less likely. Pilgrim, Nationwide, etc. members express dissatisfaction at the idea of transferring to a church that doesn't allow prints. They also have some requirements around sleeve lengths that cause Beachys from more-conservative backgrounds to not desire to transfer there. To quote one person, "We would have gone to Hebron but we would have had to change our clothes."

So they deliberately adopted non-Biblical standards simply to prevent or discourage others from joining them? That doesn't sound particularly Christian.

[Josh]

They adopted a dress standard of no prints, which made membership transfers from more conservative (and not Beachy) churches much less likely. Pilgrim, Nationwide, etc. members express dissatisfaction at the idea of transferring to a church that doesn't allow prints. They also have some requirements around sleeve lengths that cause Beachys from more-conservative backgrounds to not desire to transfer there. To quote one person, "We would have gone to Hebron but we would have had to change our clothes."

So they deliberately adopted non-Biblical standards simply to prevent or discourage others from joining them? That doesn't sound particularly Christian.

Ken,

Please respect the rules in the thread:

Discussion that Anabaptists are bad because they have so many church splits, that everyone would be better off embracing mainstream Western evangelical Christinaity, etc. are off-topic in this thread. Please take such discussion to a different thread, or start a new one.

Disrespect towards or criticism of plain Anabaptist in general, with a tone that such people should be mainstream Western evangelical Christians, is off-topic for this thread.

Moderators, can you please move Ken's message above and my response to its own thread? I am fine if Ken wants to discuss this further, but it should be in its own thread.

[RZehr]

They adopted a dress standard of no prints, which made membership transfers from more conservative (and not Beachy) churches much less likely. Pilgrim, Nationwide, etc. members express dissatisfaction at the idea of transferring to a church that doesn't allow prints. They also have some requirements around sleeve lengths that cause Beachys from more-conservative backgrounds to not desire to transfer there. To quote one person, "We would have gone to Hebron but we would have had to change our clothes."

So they deliberately adopted non-Biblical standards simply to prevent or discourage others from joining them? That doesn't sound particularly Christian.

Sudsy, this is the sort of comments (Kens) that are the reason why some of us may at times ask for replies only from conservatives. Because if we don't, the thread is as risk of derailing from the desired topic of discussion. And litigation begins over what is already a shared premise by conservatives, but is a point of contention between conservatives and liberals. And the hoped for conversation is effectively aborted.