Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Bootstrap
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Bootstrap »

However, the leader (August Gottlieb Spangenberg) of the Moravian Brethren community in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, was the opposite. He is considered a genius at economic management. He took the helm of the community while it was staggering under Zinzendorf’s debts and within 20 years had managed to pay them all off and turn the community into an economic powerhouse that was able to finance many missionaries.
But of course, even Christian communities are built of imperfect people. I was part of an intentional community that failed miserably. Others have worked very well over a long period of time.

What distinguishes the ones that work well from the ones that do not?
Koine is socialism

If we take a peek at the Greek word for “common” in Acts 4:32, we find that it is κοινός (koinos). We can recognize a root word there (koin-) that is also in a word we sometimes hear: koinonia, which means “fellowship, sharing.” Something that is “koinos” is a shared, or common-to-all, object.

When we share Christian fellowship, we are practicing koinonia. But let’s put that into the context of our study of socialism and be straightforward and honest: the last part of Acts 4:32 could be justly translated as, “but they practiced socialism with all their things.”
To me, "Koine is socialism" is a step farther than I want to take it. Our fellowship and community is rooted in Jesus Christ, not in an economic system. The community in Acts 4:32 held all things in common, I am not convinced that all Christians in the New Testament did. But they did all practice radical community.

For instance, I don't think that the Bible talks about anything like the government owning the means of production, Paul's tent-making supplies probably remained his.
Much more could be said concerning the biblical teaching of sharing God’s resources, but we will take va look at just one more, 1 Timothy 6:17-18: “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate.”

Note the bolded words. Can you guess what the Greek word is for “communicate”? Yes, κοινωνικούς (koinonikous). You can recognize the root word koin- in there. The (Middle) Liddel, Scott, Jones lexicon gives this definition for koinonikous: “held in common, social, giving a share of a thing.”

Summarized, the last part of 1 Timothy 6:17-18 could justly be translated as “ready to distribute and socialistic.”

The best cure for a greedy capitalist is to turn him into a willing socialist! Marxism failed because it tried to turn greedy capitalists into unwilling socialists by means of an AK-47 stuck to the capitalist’s head. Marxism also failed because it tried to push God out of the picture, and no one will overcome self-centeredness apart from being born again by the divine nature.
Most translations interpret κοινωνικούς as "willing to share". I don't think this should be read as "sharing all things in common with", implying a common purse or socialism. So I'm a little uncomfortable with the word "socialist" here.

But these verses and many others say that Christians do not live for the same things our non-Christian neighbors live for, and to be a true Christian, we must have a very different relationship to wealth. Beyond that, we must not equate wealth and education with value in God's eyes. We must not worship the rich and powerful.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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We will obviously need to operate our businesses and personal income within a capitalist framework, although operating them as official social enterprises like the Hutterites is not wrong.
I agree, either model can work for Christians living in a Capitalist society.
In all of this, we need to continually remind ourselves that Christ’s kingdom operates on socialist principles (remember, socialist does not equal
Marxist!), and what we legally possess—in the eyes of the government—is actually God’s, to be used wherever the need is greatest.
I struggle with the word "socialist" for this. It's one thing to say that everything belongs to "the people" and quite another to say that everything belongs to God, and that we are commanded to give freely for the good of the Christian community. I prefer words like "community" here.
Let’s be honest: handling large sums of money and resources like we do here in North America, a great temptation faces us daily to funnel some of those funds into supporting a sumptuous lifestyle.
Amen.
Once I have my “omer” of this world’s necessities, remind me that the rest is to be shared.
Amen.
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temporal1
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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boot, could you include the person’s name/source for your quotes?
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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temporal1 wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 6:30 pm boot, could you include the person’s name/source for your quotes?
The quotes all come from the articles in the original post.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Bootstrap wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 6:51 pm
temporal1 wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 6:30 pm boot, could you include the person’s name/source for your quotes?
The quotes all come from the articles in the original post.
ok. i believe those are written by MIKE ATNIP
https://www.plainnews.org/2022/06/01/so ... apitalism/
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Not to be too on the nose about it but this come from a Rod Dreher’s Substack today in which he quotes a certain Peter H. Gilmore, current high priest of the International a church of Satan: "What we invoke in Satan is a projection of the best in ourselves — a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism.”

Google searching the quote led me to the article in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation blog that it’s taken from

Which also led me to this:
LaVey was a notorious hippy-baiter — he hated the burgeoning peace and love movement at least as much as he hated the Christian church, if not more so.

He was also a devout individualist who articulated a philosophy of what today we would call self-empowerment.

During the 1800s, the Romantic poets started to look at Lucifer in Paradise Lost as a heroic figure," says Long.

"The foundational belief structures of the Western world were being reconfigured, and so during that time he started to be seen as a champion of the outsider; a champion of reason and enlightenment. So that is where I root my Satanism."

It's an often-noted irony that much of The Satanic Bible anticipates the social and economic doctrines of modern-day Republicans in the USA.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Szdfan »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 11:23 pm Not to be too on the nose about it but this come from a Rod Dreher’s Substack today in which he quotes a certain Peter H. Gilmore, current high priest of the International a church of Satan: "What we invoke in Satan is a projection of the best in ourselves — a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism.”

Google searching the quote led me to the article in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation blog that it’s taken from

Which also led me to this:
LaVey was a notorious hippy-baiter — he hated the burgeoning peace and love movement at least as much as he hated the Christian church, if not more so.

He was also a devout individualist who articulated a philosophy of what today we would call self-empowerment.

During the 1800s, the Romantic poets started to look at Lucifer in Paradise Lost as a heroic figure," says Long.

"The foundational belief structures of the Western world were being reconfigured, and so during that time he started to be seen as a champion of the outsider; a champion of reason and enlightenment. So that is where I root my Satanism."

It's an often-noted irony that much of The Satanic Bible anticipates the social and economic doctrines of modern-day Republicans in the USA.
I think this tracks. Contemporary Satanism is an extreme form of individualism that intentionally trolls Christians.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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It's an often-noted irony that much of The Satanic Bible anticipates the social and economic doctrines of modern-day Republicans in the USA.
I think this tracks. Contemporary Satanism is an extreme form of individualism that intentionally trolls Christians.
:lol: This suggests Dems aren’t Christians .. a valid question, the DNC proudly swims in satanism, protecting and promoting it in the legal system, funding it via the public treasury. The formality now involved should not be ignored. It should be terrifying.

i’m trying to learn from this discussion between HK and Robert .. i highly value both well-considered perspectives, and don’t believe i well understand either. Our peanut gallery comments aren’t helpful.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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I feel the translation that was used to the word socialist or socialism distorts the established use of those words today.

Yes, they can be translated into it, but most of the use of socialism and socialist in modern language is talking about a political/economic system.

Paul also tells us to give freely and not under compulsion. This returns to the concept if voluntary collectivism.

The US, because of our Judeo-Christian foundations of our culture has given more than all other countries combined to alleviate poverty and aid those hit by natural disasters and war. None of this is done by force.

People give more out of a freedom to give then a forced taking of their bounty of harvest.

God, in his infinite wisdom, called the Isrealites to give 10%. A tithe. God knows it takes 90% to maintain ourselves and our family. Some can give more. God impresses on those people's hearts the desire to do so. I see no need to have a government or church body demand more than God. The freedom to give makes it a gift, not a theft. It grows the heart of the giver, instead of building resentment that it is being taken.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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temporal1 wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:07 am
It's an often-noted irony that much of The Satanic Bible anticipates the social and economic doctrines of modern-day Republicans in the USA.
:lol: This suggests Dems aren’t Christians ..
It suggests more directly that Republicans aren't Christians. The Democrats were already suspect. :P
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