Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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HondurasKeiser

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Robert wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 1:59 pm
HondurasKeiser wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 12:59 pm Yes, one has the ability to freely choose those paths but the choices are not neutral. Choosing individual autonomy, to not submit, leads to death.
Yes. I agree, but we still have to make that choice. This is why it is the narrow way.

We have the right or freedom to choose. Our choices have consequences. That is what makes them matter. Taking the choice away from someone else is not honoring the gift of choice that God gives us. Thus forced socialism is counter to God's plan. Voluntary socialism to a God honoring structure honors God.
The above I think is a good example of where I see you conflating the ideas of 'freedom to follow Christ' with 'political freedom'. We both agree, inasmuch as neither of us are Calvinists, that God gives us the freedom to choose to follow Jesus and that we have the ability to daily choose Jesus and The Good or to choose sin.

The freedom to choose is good. To choose autonomy though, to not choose submission is evil and the way of Satan.

Political freedom though, does not follow from this freedom to choose Jesus. The government exists to punish evildoers and constrain evil - inasmuch as it does this it fulfills its God-given ordination. It does not exist to set us free to choose evil - inasmuch as it enables the spread of evil by sanctioning more and more evil options it reneges on its God-given ordination.

The government cannot coerce us to follow Jesus. That, as we agree is an individual choice. It can restrain us though from doing evil. That doesn't make us good, or Christian; it does though keep us from doing evil that we otherwise, in a freer environment, might be enticed to do.

The restraining of evil is not Socialism. Socialism is an (understandable) economic and social critique of Individualism. If Individualism had not knocked over the pre-modern modes of being, it [Socialism] would never have arisen.
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Robert
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:15 pm Political freedom though, does not follow from this freedom to choose Jesus.
In the US constitution, it does. It is founded on Judeo-Christian culture and philosophy.
HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:15 pm The government cannot coerce us to follow Jesus. That, as we agree is an individual choice. It can restrain us though from doing evil.
It can not restrain us, but punish us if we do something against the law. Not all things lawful are good. Not all things that there are no laws about bad. Law is an attempt to bring order. It is not always right, as in slavery, abortion, and a few other things that were evil, but legal.
HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:15 pm Political freedom though, does not follow from this freedom to choose Jesus.
Where do you see me saying that it does?

I am stating that individualism is required for a person to choose. It is needed in faith. It is available in western society. Western society is based off of Judeo-Christian principles.
HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:15 pm Socialism is an (understandable) economic and social critique of Individualism. If Individualism had not knocked over the pre-modern modes of being, it [Socialism] would never have arisen.
Socialism is just another form of top down dictatorial order. That has been in existence in every era that Scripture has been written. It is not new. Individualism is quite new. Starting strong at 30 AD and growing from there.

A government based on individualism started in 1790.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Robert wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 4:20 pm
HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 3:15 pm Political freedom though, does not follow from this freedom to choose Jesus.
In the US constitution, it does. It is founded on Judeo-Christian culture and philosophy.
Really? The US Constitution basically has two parts.

The first part sets out the organization of the government with an elected executive, an elected legislature to make laws, and a separate and independent judicial branch.

The second part of the Constitution is the Bill of Rights and subsequent additions through amendments.

Which part of any of that is based on Judeo-Christian or Biblical principles?

Republican government instead of monarchy?
Democratically elected executive (president)
Democratically elected legislature to make laws?
Separation of Church and State?
Freedom of Speech?
Right to trial by jury?
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Josh

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

Well, the people who wrote it said so. You would learn this in any basic American history class.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Josh wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:12 pm Well, the people who wrote it said so. You would learn this in any basic American history class.
A read of the Federalist Papers would help one understand this too.
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 7:37 pm
Josh wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:12 pm Well, the people who wrote it said so. You would learn this in any basic American history class.
A read of the Federalist Papers would help one understand this too.
No, you would not learn that in any basic American history class.

And no, a reading of the Federalist papers would not generate that understanding either. To the contrary.

Read through the Federalist papers from beginning to end. All 85 of them. You will not find one single reference to "God", "creator", "Christianity or "Judeo-Christian". Or any other similar sentiments. Not one single reference. Pull them up online and do a word search if you don't believe me. Here they are: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/full-text

And, of course the leading "Anti-Federalist Democrat" was Thomas Jefferson. He made his opinions quite clear. For example:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
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joshuabgood

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by joshuabgood »

Robert wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 7:37 pm
Josh wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 6:12 pm Well, the people who wrote it said so. You would learn this in any basic American history class.
A read of the Federalist Papers would help one understand this too.
Well I have read most of the popular Federalist papers, and am looking at the unabridged collection on my bookshelf as I type, and I have taught and studied American history for a number of years and it isn't clear at all to me the the US govt has anything to do with Christianity. It's origin isn't even compatible with what Jesus taught.

And I remain puzzled by the term Judeo-christian.
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Szdfan

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Szdfan »

joshuabgood wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 8:24 pm And I remain puzzled by the term Judeo-christian.
The term didn't exist until the 19th Century and wasn't popularized until the 1930s as part of trying to draw a distinction between the US and Britain with fascist, anti-Semitic Germany. Ironically, it was a term popularized by liberals, like George Orwell.

It's a rather loaded, problematic term that has had a mixed response from the Jewish community. On the one hand, the term did help American Jews move closer to the mainstream. On the other hand, it does co-op Jews into a Christian view of the world that they don't necessarily believe they are a part of. Jews don't necessarily see themselves as part of a continuous stream with Christians. We're the heretics to them.
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temporal1

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by temporal1 »

oops. forgot the OP. Bunny trails, P.98
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Szdfan

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Szdfan »

Democracy and representational government are not Christian principles. At least, I can't find any place in scripture that supports them. The concepts of "Democracy" and "Republic" never show up in the Bible. They are both Greek and Roman concepts.

There's a reason why the government buildings in Washington, DC are based on neoclassical Greek influences and not the gothic cathedrals of medieval Europe.
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