Orthodox and Catholic Apologetics

[Chris]

From another thread.

This isn't an orthodox or catholic debate thread. Believe me they have apologetics to every single one of your arguments and are not naive to these points whatsoever. You can read those if you google them. Simple to find.

That said this is a thread about why these churches actually GO into the cities on a large encompassing scale, reaching people... Whereas the Anabaptists remain mostly in corn fields.

You cannot compare the two, condemn the practices of one and claim it’s not fair to discuss the problems with the other.
For example, the Catholics and Orthodox relatively don’t require anything other then ritual based behavior. The Anabaptist do. This naturally results in a conversion bias. You have to be willing to consider your own bias looking at this to consider the flaw in your argument.

Just let me know of all the "corruption" to your children if they play in a backyard in a decent normal neighborhood. I think this is an excuse to remain isolated to be honest. Again, I'm being raw

What you call raw, I call hurt. You need to check your heart for un-forgiveness for those who have hurt you. You can address problems better if you aren’t bitter. If I misread you, my apologies.

These are the Apologetics for "Father". (not mine, theirs)

1 Cornithians 4
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Iconography dates back to ancient Christianity.
Dura Europos had this icon from 232 AD (estimated)
https://wp.en.aleteia.org/wp-content/up ... 640&crop=1
Today it looks like this
https://www.goarch.org/documents/32058/ ... 2789916000
Iconography is in ancient Christianity. They never believe they are bowing to icons or venerating paint and wood etc. They believe only in that which is represented on the image being that "Jesus Christ in the flesh was the image of God". So when they venerate, they faithfully feel they unworthily venerate Christ.




17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Their term Father is not used for heavenly "Father" as Jesus commanded us not to use. Their term "Father" means the person guiding and admonishing them in the faith.

[Soloist]

So Chris, what do you believe? I’m not interested in hearing Catholic/Orthodox dogma.

[Chris]

So Chris, what do you believe? I’m not interested in hearing Catholic/Orthodox dogma.

You asked an I answered with THEIR apologetics. You are accusing them and refusing interest in their reasoning. You don't have to believe their reasoning. Believe me, I've barely scratched the surface of what they say on these topics.

My question on the other thread was why they are in cities practicing the Great Commission (reaching the world), and Anabaptists are generally no where in sight - safety groups in corn fields. When you accused EO & RC of disobeying Jesus, I only think it's fair you see their apologetics. In this case you really were not interested, just wanted to accuse.

That said, I think the Anabaptist thread is serious, and this is a serious concern and problem with the Anabaptist people.

[Soloist]

You asked an I answered with THEIR apologetics. You are accusing them and refusing interest in their reasoning. You don't have to believe their reasoning. Believe me, I've barely scratched the surface of what they say on these topics.

My question on the other thread was why they are in cities practicing the Great Commission (reaching the world), and Anabaptists are generally no where in sight - safety groups in corn fields. When you accused EO & RC of disobeying Jesus, I only think it's fair you see their apologetics. In this case you really were not interested, just wanted to accuse.

That said, I think the Anabaptist thread is serious, and this is a serious concern and problem with the Anabaptist people.

Practice the great commission means all of it.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You are defending them and saying they are practicing the great commission and I pointed out they have flaws. So what do you believe? They don’t practice or teach what Jesus taught and yes, they have some argument for any point I raise. I’ve read it several times and I’m far more interested in a personal view then a doctrine specifically scripted to answer the question by saying Jesus didn’t mean what He said.

[Chris]

You asked an I answered with THEIR apologetics. You are accusing them and refusing interest in their reasoning. You don't have to believe their reasoning. Believe me, I've barely scratched the surface of what they say on these topics.

My question on the other thread was why they are in cities practicing the Great Commission (reaching the world), and Anabaptists are generally no where in sight - safety groups in corn fields. When you accused EO & RC of disobeying Jesus, I only think it's fair you see their apologetics. In this case you really were not interested, just wanted to accuse.

That said, I think the Anabaptist thread is serious, and this is a serious concern and problem with the Anabaptist people.

Practice the great commission means all of it.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You are defending them and saying they are practicing the great commission and I pointed out they have flaws. So what do you believe? They don’t practice or teach what Jesus taught and yes, they have some argument for any point I raise. I’ve read it several times and I’m far more interested in a personal view then a doctrine specifically scripted to answer the question by saying Jesus didn’t mean what He said.

You baited the defense trying to make a point. I said they are living out the great commission by being in towns unlike Anabaptists. You said they were not and basically heretics because of point A and B.

I merely said they have apologetics for that, not entirely that I believe it.

Then you said "I don't want to hear it".

Basically it's like arguments between siblings, where one calls the other a "dummy" then closes their ears and eyes and runs away not wanting to hear the reality.


If you are going to attack Orthodoxy, there are ways to do it. But the ways you pointed out have been debunked like crazy. The defense I posted is THEIR defense, which is why I emphasized the word.

It's just the most elementary "debunk" of Orthodoxy / Catholic you can get. So I posted THEIR defense, not mine. You ran away from it not wanting to see their defense.

[Soloist]

All I did was ask what you believed. I’ll agree to disagree unless you wish to share your personal views.

[Chris]

All I did was ask what you believed. I’ll agree to disagree unless you wish to share your personal views.

I can see their point on those apologetics. I won't be practicing them, but I won't condemn them either.

[MaxPC]

You asked an I answered with THEIR apologetics. You are accusing them and refusing interest in their reasoning. You don't have to believe their reasoning. Believe me, I've barely scratched the surface of what they say on these topics.

My question on the other thread was why they are in cities practicing the Great Commission (reaching the world), and Anabaptists are generally no where in sight - safety groups in corn fields. When you accused EO & RC of disobeying Jesus, I only think it's fair you see their apologetics. In this case you really were not interested, just wanted to accuse.

That said, I think the Anabaptist thread is serious, and this is a serious concern and problem with the Anabaptist people.

Practice the great commission means all of it.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You are defending them and saying they are practicing the great commission and I pointed out they have flaws. So what do you believe? They don’t practice or teach what Jesus taught and yes, they have some argument for any point I raise. I’ve read it several times and I’m far more interested in a personal view then a doctrine specifically scripted to answer the question by saying Jesus didn’t mean what He said.

You baited the defense trying to make a point. I said they are living out the great commission by being in towns unlike Anabaptists. You said they were not and basically heretics because of point A and B.

I merely said they have apologetics for that, not entirely that I believe it.

Then you said "I don't want to hear it".

Basically it's like arguments between siblings, where one calls the other a "dummy" then closes their ears and eyes and runs away not wanting to hear the reality.

If you are going to attack Orthodoxy, there are ways to do it. But the ways you pointed out have been debunked like crazy. The defense I posted is THEIR defense, which is why I emphasized the word.

It's just the most elementary "debunk" of Orthodoxy / Catholic you can get. So I posted THEIR defense, not mine. You ran away from it not wanting to see their defense.

Chris, those back-door attacks remind me of Matthew 22: 15-22

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

When dealing with apologetics and queries, I like to remember Jesus' words in Matthew 10:14

And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.

Some will listen and discuss reasonably the topics in question. Some people are hard-hearted and will not listen to anything positive about their favorite scapegoats. Some people just like to argue. Some people have mental issues and/or are so filled with anger that they will easily trigger into rants, ravings and twisted accusations. Jesus knew this and He also knew of the the verbal entrapments used in attempts to discredit Him. In my long 90 years, the more I read the Bible the more I realise that people in Jesus' time are no different than those in our time. Hence the wisdom in His words in Matthew 10:14.

[Chris]

Practice the great commission means all of it.
You are defending them and saying they are practicing the great commission and I pointed out they have flaws. So what do you believe? They don’t practice or teach what Jesus taught and yes, they have some argument for any point I raise. I’ve read it several times and I’m far more interested in a personal view then a doctrine specifically scripted to answer the question by saying Jesus didn’t mean what He said.

You baited the defense trying to make a point. I said they are living out the great commission by being in towns unlike Anabaptists. You said they were not and basically heretics because of point A and B.

I merely said they have apologetics for that, not entirely that I believe it.

Then you said "I don't want to hear it".

Basically it's like arguments between siblings, where one calls the other a "dummy" then closes their ears and eyes and runs away not wanting to hear the reality.

If you are going to attack Orthodoxy, there are ways to do it. But the ways you pointed out have been debunked like crazy. The defense I posted is THEIR defense, which is why I emphasized the word.

It's just the most elementary "debunk" of Orthodoxy / Catholic you can get. So I posted THEIR defense, not mine. You ran away from it not wanting to see their defense.

Chris, those back-door attacks remind me of Matthew 22: 15-22

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

When dealing with apologetics and queries, I like to remember Jesus' words in Matthew 10:14

And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.

Some will listen and discuss reasonably the topics in question. Some people are hard-hearted and will not listen to anything positive about their favorite scapegoats. Some people just like to argue. Some people have mental issues and/or are so filled with anger that they will easily trigger into rants, ravings and twisted accusations. Jesus knew this and He also knew of the the verbal entrapments used in attempts to discredit Him. In my long 90 years, the more I read the Bible the more I realise that people in Jesus' time are no different than those in our time. Hence the wisdom in His words in Matthew 10:14.

I appreciate this and don't want to condemn anybody. I like to listen to others and hear the points they make. Eastern Orthodoxy as well as Roman Catholics have a broad, deep, and amazingly complex history. We don't have the right really to just make a few points and not listen to them. Many folks act like these churches "disobey the gospel". If we can say that, we need to listen to them on the reasons they seem to be. (We don't have to agree, but we should at least listen.) I've even seen these churches marginalized as if they were "stupid" and not knowing what they are doing, which is far from the fact. They have full blown universities, seminaries, and an extremely rigorous program for the upcoming priests. Many have accredited Masters degrees.

But yes, people will entrap each other. It's difficult. But we also forgive. I also appreciate 90 years my friend.... That's great!

[MaxPC]

But yes, people will entrap each other. It's difficult. But we also forgive.

Indeed, yes, forgiveness is important. Christ continued Matthew 10:14 with
Matthew 10:16 
:

“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Jesus is concerned about the state of the soul of His disciples who are carrying the Gospel message. He knew that we would encounter the hard-hearted and that they would try to taunt us, make us betray Christ’s message by giving in to their taunts and becoming angry.

Anger hardens hearts and a hardened heart finds it very difficult to forgive. Hence Christ told us to shake the dust from our feet; not from lack of forgiveness but rather to protect the heart of the disciple from being hardened from the angry arguments that are endemic with individuals who refuse to listen. By listening to Christ; and refusing to argue with those who refuse to listen; we are protecting our hearts from bitterness.

St. Paul echoes this teaching:

Romans 16:19

For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.



Philippians 2:15

that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world