Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:33 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:28 pmWhile I can attest to true spiritual life among the Amish (both preachers and laity), other encounters reveal otherwise, for some individuals. Even among those in whom I sense genuine spiritual life, there is a tendency to view things like the confession made at the time of baptism as a technically right confession, rather than as a personal one. (Or, to spell it out a bit more, they hold that it is not important whether they had a personal faith in Jesus as their savior, but what was essential was that they had made "a right confession", a theologically correct one. Former Amish with this opinion who later move to other congregations will not ask to be baptized upon their faith, maintaining that it would be an unnecessary insult to the Amish church in which they were baptized. That is, they believe they were already "baptized upon their confession".)
In consideration of this, I would say that in general, the Amish are not really even anabaptist at all, because they do not claim a position consistent with "believers' baptism".
Whilst I would not necessarily disagree, the exact same conditions are present in many other churches, ranging from generic evangelical Christians to megachurches to "conservative Mennonites" to barely-conservative Mennonites.
There are some groups that maintain an environment that promotes a very strong spiritual life. I will refrain from tooting my own church's horn, but I have observed the Old Order River Brethren maintain an environment where spiritually dead people don't feel comfortable. I have been around a BMA church that actually was the same way. And then I have been exposed to some very, very conservative groups (horse and buggy, even) that seem to have very strong spiritual life, and people who insist on being spiritually dead leave it.
On the flip side, some groups seem to have a serious weakness when it comes to a pervasive spiritual deadness where it is tolerated or spiritually dead people even feel quite comfortable.
I wonder if in this phrase "... but I have observed the Old Order River Brethren maintain an environment where spiritually dead people don't feel comfortable." you didn't intend to say "uncomfortable".
Anyway, to your point about this problem in other groups, I agree. I was, in fact, talking about people who had left the Amish church, and when they decided to join another type congregation, they didn't want to be baptized again, even though the freely admitted that they had no relationship with God when they were baptized the first time. (I was about to say that I had never talked with any Amish church members about this, but then I remembered that I did ask an Amish coworker at the factory where I was employed. I asked him if a church member came to the ministers and said that he or she hadn't been a Christian at the time they were baptized, and wanted to be baptized again, would they consent. He said that no, they would not. He said why, but I do not remember well enough exactly what he said to be able to accurately express it here.) But I was talking about former Amish. I knew two men who had been close friends from the time they were growing up in the Amish church, then both served together in CPS during WWII. (They are both deceased now, but I still won't name names.) They both joined the Beachy church, as believers, having come to salvation through involvement in the Bible Study movement among young Amish people following the war. But unfortunately this was not approved by the Amish leadership in their area, and both were under threat of excommunication. One felt he should be baptized again, since he hadn't been a believer at that time. The other resisted his friend's decision or suggestion, and said that he had made a "right confession about Jesus Christ". (He also told me that he had only been baptized & joined the church under pressure from his parents, and to avoid the draft. He said he wasn't done doing the things that he knew he couldn't do after joining the church, things like going to professional ball games.) The one who did it met very strong disapproval from the Amish church. (They remained friends for their entire lives in spite of this disagreement, each believing that the other was wrong.)
On the other hand, when I was in 4th or 5th grade (public school) a family moved into our area from Tulsa, and the 2nd oldest boy sort of bragged that he & his brother were in trouble with the police, and that's why his parents had moved out to the country. Later the family started coming to the MB church, and his parents, who said that they had been Sunday School teachers in their old (non-Mennonite) church, later became Christians, saying that they had never realized that what salvation was, that they had never been saved. And yes, they wanted to be baptized again (upon confession of faith).
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.