Headship Series

[temporal1]

1 Corinthians 3:7

It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow.

The job is to share Truth.
Trust in God/the Holy Spirit for outcomes.

Vanity gets in the way.

[Soloist]

I'm glad to hear that this works for you as a door opener to further conversation about Jesus. And I agree this can be a conversation that is a planting of seed or a watering of seed already planted. I just am curious when what is planted and watered does not result in a harvest. Could it be that we are not planting and watering the seeds that will provide a harvest of born again believers ? When I plant and water something in my garden I expect to receive a certain kind of harvest. And, no doubt, somethings can interfere with a harvest being had. But also if the seed I am planting is not the right seed I will not get what I am hoping to harvest. I think sometimes seeds are planted and watered that just produce pew bench warmers. They do not produce a harvest of born again, Spirit filled followers of Christ. So the quality and kind of seed we are planting is very important.

Anyway, interesting to hear of how wearing a headcovering in public has given you opportunities to share Jesus.

Among the Conservative Mennonites I see a high percentage of people who are participating in the church and the work that it does. I don't see the same to be true among the majority of the worldly churches I've been at.
If we actually believe Jesus's account of sowing seeds is an accurate depiction then many of those seeds will not amount to quality. Also often we do not see the plant actually bloom

1 Cor 3:6-8 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

I do not both plant, water and see the growth but I see differing stages of this in people I come across. I think that your view of Spirit filled and our view of Spirit filled is a good deal different as demonstrated by the numerous disagreements you have with the conservatives.

[Sudsy]

I'm glad to hear that this works for you as a door opener to further conversation about Jesus. And I agree this can be a conversation that is a planting of seed or a watering of seed already planted. I just am curious when what is planted and watered does not result in a harvest. Could it be that we are not planting and watering the seeds that will provide a harvest of born again believers ? When I plant and water something in my garden I expect to receive a certain kind of harvest. And, no doubt, somethings can interfere with a harvest being had. But also if the seed I am planting is not the right seed I will not get what I am hoping to harvest. I think sometimes seeds are planted and watered that just produce pew bench warmers. They do not produce a harvest of born again, Spirit filled followers of Christ. So the quality and kind of seed we are planting is very important.

Anyway, interesting to hear of how wearing a headcovering in public has given you opportunities to share Jesus.

Among the Conservative Mennonites I see a high percentage of people who are participating in the church and the work that it does. I don't see the same to be true among the majority of the worldly churches I've been at.
If we actually believe Jesus's account of sowing seeds is an accurate depiction then many of those seeds will not amount to quality. Also often we do not see the plant actually bloom

1 Cor 3:6-8 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

I do not both plant, water and see the growth but I see differing stages of this in people I come across. I think that your view of Spirit filled and our view of Spirit filled is a good deal different as demonstrated by the numerous disagreements you have with the conservatives.

I believe for a seed to grow it requires good soil. I believe some faith groups do not flourish with an obvious harvest because they are sowing seeds in poor soil, meaning a religion of works or a religion of easy beliefism. As the old saying goes 'the proof is in the pudding' which I am using to say that if good seed is planted and watered correctly, God will bring it to harvest. If a Christian group is not producing converts and their church growing then something is wrong with the seed and/or the soil they are planting the seed in.

A Spirit led and Spirit filled church will be a growing church because it is sowing good seed on good soil and watering it to produce a harvest. If you think I am picking on 'conservative' churches especially, I think I pick on those considered 'liberal' as much.

There are people very involved in their churches whether they be considered 'conservative' or 'liberal' but involvement itself will not produce a harvest which if grown properly will have both quality and quantity.

I grew up in what would likely be called a 'conservative' church. But it was a growing church also, not only having a local on-going harvest but that harvest going out to plant more seed elsewhere which produced a harvest.

If you are saying that our Spirit filled views differ than I would be interested to read your view of what a Spirit filled church looks like.

[ohio jones]

I believe for a seed to grow it requires good soil. I believe some faith groups do not flourish with an obvious harvest because they are sowing seeds in poor soil, meaning a religion of works or a religion of easy beliefism. As the old saying goes 'the proof is in the pudding' which I am using to say that if good seed is planted and watered correctly, God will bring it to harvest. If a Christian group is not producing converts and their church growing then something is wrong with the seed and/or the soil they are planting the seed in.

In the parable of the sower, the seed is the "word of God" (Luke) or the "word of the kingdom" (Matthew). Now of course if that is not the seed that's being sown, there will not be a harvest. But the soil is the heart of the hearer, not the culture of the local church; the parable has nothing to say about that. Only one of the four types of soil produced a harvest. There was no problem with the seed or the sowing, yet even if everything is done right, God does not always bring everything to harvest. It depends on how the hearer receives it, and that is not the responsibility of the sower. The sower in fact did not limit his seed to the fertile ground, but scattered it widely, even though much of it would not produce. Even if it looks like a Christian group is producing converts and their church is growing, some of that may be rocks-and-thorns believers who do not last. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

[temporal1]

[Sudsy]

I believe for a seed to grow it requires good soil. I believe some faith groups do not flourish with an obvious harvest because they are sowing seeds in poor soil, meaning a religion of works or a religion of easy beliefism. As the old saying goes 'the proof is in the pudding' which I am using to say that if good seed is planted and watered correctly, God will bring it to harvest. If a Christian group is not producing converts and their church growing then something is wrong with the seed and/or the soil they are planting the seed in.

In the parable of the sower, the seed is the "word of God" (Luke) or the "word of the kingdom" (Matthew). Now of course if that is not the seed that's being sown, there will not be a harvest. But the soil is the heart of the hearer, not the culture of the local church; the parable has nothing to say about that. Only one of the four types of soil produced a harvest. There was no problem with the seed or the sowing, yet even if everything is done right, God does not always bring everything to harvest. It depends on how the hearer receives it, and that is not the responsibility of the sower. The sower in fact did not limit his seed to the fertile ground, but scattered it widely, even though much of it would not produce. Even if it looks like a Christian group is producing converts and their church is growing, some of that may be rocks-and-thorns believers who do not last. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Thankyou. I agree that the soil is what you said, the heart of the believer. I do think the sower is responsible for the seed they are sowing. The seed of salvation by works is not the seed the sower is to sow. And yes, the hearer has responsibility also to receive what is sown. But when the sower scatters seed does he expect a good harvest or does he care what that sowing brings forth ?

Yes, not all that might appear to be good fruit have wrotten cores. I'm not convinced the verse you gave refers to salvation from hell though. Here are 3 views on what this text refers to -

https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/24/Matthew-24-13.html

[Outsider]

x

[Outsider]

Yes, not all that might appear to be good fruit have wrotten cores. I'm not convinced the verse you gave refers to salvation from hell though. Here are 3 views on what this text refers to -

https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/24/Matthew-24-13.html

Jesus has a lot more to say about "the end" than that one line.

Matt 24:
45 Who, then, is the servant, faithful and wise, whom his lord did set over his household, to give them the nourishment in season?46 Happy that servant, whom his lord, having come, shall find doing so; 47 verily I say to you, that over all his substance he will set him.

48 `And, if that evil servant may say in his heart, My Lord doth delay to come, 49 and may begin to beat the fellow-servants, and to eat and to drink with the drunken, 50 the lord of that servant will arrive in a day when he doth not expect, and in an hour of which he doth not know, 51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

[Outsider]

So I believe although there is a limit to 'blending in' as we are not given a license to sin to win others, our main identifier that should stand out more than other appearances is our good deeds. We should dress in our culture in a way that does not outshine our good deeds.

I absolutely agree with this thought. It should be our good deeds, our peace, our Godliness which shines to the nations.

I also agree that while the headcovering may give some women an "icebreaker" in talking about Christ, I don't think that's it's primary purpose. And I don't think that women are required to wear them (biblically) all the time. It's only required if they're "praying or prophesying".

It's a form of ritual purity. As is abstaining from "sexual immorality".

When a woman covers her head, she is making a statement in the Spiritual realm- firstly that she is not like Eve. She submits to God's commands, and believes in his word. Eve thought she could be equal to God, and did not believe his word. There is an "original sin", and it's the same sin Satan committed- assuming yourself as great and wise as God.

When a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she is committing the same sin Eve committed. She is saying, spiritually, that her thoughts are equal to God's thoughts.

[Sudsy]

So I believe although there is a limit to 'blending in' as we are not given a license to sin to win others, our main identifier that should stand out more than other appearances is our good deeds. We should dress in our culture in a way that does not outshine our good deeds.

I absolutely agree with this thought. It should be our good deeds, our peace, our Godliness which shines to the nations.

I believe good deeds performed by a believer has something special about them that stands out from the same good deeds performed by an unbeliever. I don't think just doing good deeds is the light that Jesus talks about that stands out like a city on a hill. Any thoughts on this ?

I also agree that while the headcovering may give some women an "icebreaker" in talking about Christ, I don't think that's it's primary purpose. And I don't think that women are required to wear them (biblically) all the time. It's only required if they're "praying or prophesying".

Scripturally speaking that is how I understand it also. Basically worn amongst believers in a local church gathering.

It's a form of ritual purity. As is abstaining from "sexual immorality".

That I don't follow.

When a woman covers her head, she is making a statement in the Spiritual realm- firstly that she is not like Eve. She submits to God's commands, and believes in his word. Eve thought she could be equal to God, and did not believe his word. There is an "original sin", and it's the same sin Satan committed- assuming yourself as great and wise as God.

So since it is called a 'head covering' is a woman making more of a statement with a towel covering her head than a small see through cap that can't even be recognized looking straight on ? In other words how can a headcovering be called a headcovering when it might only cover one little spot on the back of the head ? Does that speak to angels as a headcovering ?

What puzzles me is that some who wear some sort of headcovering, be it ever so small that it covers little of the head, will also be baptised in water by sprinkling when water baptism means immersion and symbolically as Paul says in Romans 6:4 symbolizes being dead to sin, buried and rising to new life.

Just saying, if our practises are going to be more literally applied would it not seem to be more obedient to have a first century head covering that really did cover most of the head and a water baptism by immersion that pictured what Romans 6:4 says ?

When a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she is committing the same sin Eve committed. She is saying, spiritually, that her thoughts are equal to God's thoughts.

Regarding women prophesying. What does this look like in today's Anabaptist church. When I was a youngster in a Pentecostal church women, at times, would stand up in the congregation and pass on some words they believed the Holy Spirit was giving them to deliver. So, really they were instructing both men and women with these words. One can't both keep silent and prophesy, right ? And also, does wearing a headcovering not allow women to lead in prayer or only pray silently ? I find this too a bit confusing in how it is practised.