Lisa Miller case

General Christian Theology
temporal1
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by temporal1 »

.. I do not want a government deciding on my morality.

in my view, only from what i’ve read, there are sufficient non-morality points to decide in favor of LM.

this case seems to highlight the “special” (not equal) value+power of homosexuals (via their organized bloc) in courts of law.
and in society. it’s bullying. and, it’s destructive.

the trend is decidedly “minority rules” over majority rules.
self-serving political blocs have taken the 1964 “precedent,” new law (experiment) intended to benefit a special specific demograph, descendents of authentic slaves, and mercilessly exploited it beyond recognition for their own gain.

i would like to imagine, if i were such a descendent, i would be LIVID at the nonsensical exploitation of law that was enacted with such specific hope. it’s become a godless hell for ordinary people, destruction of traditional family units, a major competition to see who can pirate the most dollars from taxpayers, and bully (the majority) through heavy-handed force of the sword.

that’s human law/human reasoning for ya. scriptures warn.

less cowering to language trickery is needed. more eyes wide open.

imho.

perhaps as BRIAN PECKFORD described in Canada, in the video you just shared, but it disappeared,
their courts have trended toward reflecting public opinion, away from actual law. throw out the word, “lesbian!” and eyes are blinded to other details. “give them what they want, and hope they’ll go away.” (fat chance.) proven over decades, following the deceit of, “consenting adults.”
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Ken
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:40 am
Ken wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:31 am Custody cases involving non-biological parents are actually pretty common.
This has been a challenging case for me to find a side. I do understand the need to protect the child, but false claims happen a lot in these things.

I also understand the desire to keep the child out of a destructive life, but same sex relationships, while I may disagree with them on religious reasons, are not in themselves harmful to a child legally. I do not want a government deciding on my morality.
One problem is that there are at least three or four completely separate issues at play in the discussion of this case.

First there is the issue of biological vs non biological parents. There has been a lot of discussion about how one parent was less legitimate than the other based on biology. But in point of fact, there are a number of people here on this very forum who have non-biological adopted children, myself included. And I don't think we want to go down the road of claiming that biological parents always have superior rights. If that were the case then no adoption in this country would be considered permanent. And adopted children would be second-class children.

Second there is the issue of marriage. We recognize a wide variety of types of marriages as valid in this society including various types of common law marriages in which there is no lawful marriage license, and now same-sex marriages. Claiming that the parents were not legally married is not usually at issue in custody cases anymore, whether it was an ordinary opposite-sex pair or a same-sex pair.

Third there is the issue of child abuse. Accusations were made but to my knowledge never proven. That is an extremely serious allegation and I tend to give deference to accusers and victims except in this case it wasn't the alleged victim making the accusation.

The final issue is the religious objection to gay marriage and same-sex relationships. I think that is 95% of what this case is about. The lesson is, don't get into one if you are eventually going to regret it. Forced marriages, child marriages, and other sorts of involuntary marriages are a big problem around the world. But in this country forced same-sex marriages are not a thing. It is something you choose to do as consenting adults.
Last edited by Ken on Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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temporal1
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by temporal1 »

my FIRST prayer would be for these matters, and many others, to be resolved out of court.
they can be. it’s entirely possible. it’s possible to be responsible adults. even in disagreement. even in pain.

this is the option that should be normalized+promoted, encouraged and supported.
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Szdfan
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Szdfan »

Robert wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:05 pm
She’s going on trial for protecting her daughter from a child abuser. According to you, she’ll be found guilty, and apparently that’s a good thing. Why don’t you choose the side of justice for a change instead of blithely telling us “this is just the way things are”?
Well, the accusations of abuse were not proved in court, so it is hard for the court to use that as reason when it is just hearsay. My three boys have two mothers. They have a biological mother and a legal, adoptive mother who has loved and raised them.

I am not saying that Lisa was wrong to protect her child, but I have seen many cases of one parent claiming abuse in divorces that never happened.
Allegations of child abuse are extremely common in high-conflict child custody cases. Most of the time, the allegations turn out not to be true.
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Josh
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Josh »

Ken and Szdfan,

No child has two mothers. Janet is not that child’s “mother” and never was. Every child has exactly one mother.

And child abuse is far more common when homosexuals are involved. Plenty of research points to this. If you insist on denying this, this simply means you are part of the pro-gay lobby including trying to force it into our churches and families.
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Ken
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:54 pm Ken and Szdfan,

No child has two mothers. Janet is not that child’s “mother” and never was. Every child has exactly one mother.
My oldest daughter has a biological mother who she has never met and an adoptive mother who is my wife.

Families are often much more complex than your simplistic biological notions.
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temporal1
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:54 pm .. No child has two mothers. Janet is not that child’s “mother” and never was. Every child has exactly one mother.

And child abuse is far more common when homosexuals are involved. Plenty of research points to this. If you insist on denying this, this simply means you are part of the pro-gay lobby including trying to force it into our churches and families.
Every child has exactly 1 biological mother and 1 biological father, including IVF.

jcm isn’t posting on MN, but, as he once aptly pointed out, “There’s got to be a rooster in there somewhere.” :mrgreen:

As covered earlier in this thread (i think) - JJ was legally described as “NEXT FRIEND” of Isabella:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE
DISTRICT OF VERMONT
https://files.eqcf.org/wp-content/uploa ... -Order.pdf
JANET JENKINS, for herself and as :
next friend of ISABELLA MILLER- :
JENKINS, a/k/a ISABELLA MILLER, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
v. :
:
KENNETH L. MILLER, LISA ANN MILLER :
f/k/a LISA MILLER-JENKINS, TIMOTHY :
D. MILLER, RESPONSE UNLIMITED, :
INC., PHILIP ZODHIATES, :
individually and as an :
agent for RESPONSE UNLIMITED, INC.,:
VICTORIA HYDEN, f/k/a VICTORIA :
ZODHIATES, individually and as an :
agent for RESPONSE UNLIMITED, :
Case No. 2:12-cv-184
INC., LINDA M. WALL,
Defendants.


Anyone who has LEGALLY ADOPTED or has LEGAL GUARDIANSHIP knows very well the process and costs involved.
They are NOT labeled “Next Friend.”

To repeat, people are currently so blinded by the FLASH+SPLASH of homosexual-words, they forget all common sense.
The political bloc exploits all this, in every scenario, not just courts. That’s what BULLIES do. “ME ME ME.”

There is NO aim to be equal. It’s all about being SPECIAL. Children are collateral damage. Incidental.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Ken
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:04 pm
Josh wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:54 pm .. No child has two mothers. Janet is not that child’s “mother” and never was. Every child has exactly one mother.

And child abuse is far more common when homosexuals are involved. Plenty of research points to this. If you insist on denying this, this simply means you are part of the pro-gay lobby including trying to force it into our churches and families.
Every child has exactly 1 biological mother and 1 biological father, including IVF.

jcm isn’t posting on MN, but, as he once aptly pointed out, “There’s got to be a rooster in there somewhere.” :mrgreen:

As covered earlier in this thread (i think) - JJ was legally described as “NEXT FRIEND” of Isabella:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE
DISTRICT OF VERMONT
https://files.eqcf.org/wp-content/uploa ... -Order.pdf
JANET JENKINS, for herself and as :
next friend of ISABELLA MILLER- :
JENKINS, a/k/a ISABELLA MILLER, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
v. :
:
KENNETH L. MILLER, LISA ANN MILLER :
f/k/a LISA MILLER-JENKINS, TIMOTHY :
D. MILLER, RESPONSE UNLIMITED, :
INC., PHILIP ZODHIATES, :
individually and as an :
agent for RESPONSE UNLIMITED, INC.,:
VICTORIA HYDEN, f/k/a VICTORIA :
ZODHIATES, individually and as an :
agent for RESPONSE UNLIMITED, :
Case No. 2:12-cv-184
INC., LINDA M. WALL,
Defendants.


Anyone who has LEGALLY ADOPTED or has LEGAL GUARDIANSHIP knows very well the process and costs involved.
They are NOT labeled “Next Friend.”

To repeat, people are currently so blinded by the FLASH+SPLASH of homosexual-words, they forget all common sense.
The political bloc exploits all this, in every scenario, not just courts. That’s what BULLIES do. “ME ME ME.”

There is NO aim to be equal. It’s all about being SPECIAL. Children are collateral damage. Incidental.
In the legal filing you just quotes above, the daughter's legal name in the filing and on her birth certificate is ISABELLA MILLER-JENKINS

How did that come to be her legal last name on her birth certificate? Where did the Jenkins come from? And who is the second parent name listed on her birth certificate?

One does not actually have to go through the legal process of adoption if one is listed on the birth certificate from birth. Adoption is the process of modifying a birth certificate. There are thousands and thousands of children born every year in this country who have parents listed on their birth certificates who are not the biological parent of that child. It is exceedingly common and is not the same thing as adoption. Women can frankly choose to list any father they want on a birth certificate and it is rarely challenged and probably never challenged if they are married and the husband happens to not be the biological father. The only unique thing about this case is that Lisa Miller chose to list another woman instead of a husband on the birth certificate who might or might not have been the biological father.

If this case involved a married heterosexual couple who used a sperm donor, the outcome wouldn't have been any different. The father would have had parental rights regardless of whether it was his sperm used in conception.
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temporal1
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by temporal1 »

i’m not a lawyer, to my knowledge, no forum member is, but, as i recall, when our children were born, i wrote out their names and was free to write any name i desired, i could have written in your name, if i chose.

a few weeks after our son was born, we decided to change his name. we went to the recorder’s office, they crossed out the first, added the second. done.

on the Vermont court document above, as a lay person, knowing Vermont is ultra-liberal, et al., i find the words “Next Friend” significant; no parent, bio or adopted, or even legal guardian would accept such wording. there are several on this forum who have first-hand experience with adoptions, foster children, etc.

there were other details, possibly earlier in this thread, that brought serious questions up about the relationship in question.
i’m not searching. LM has acted, the court has ruled, it’s a non-issue - EXCEPT how this case will be exploited by who-knows-what in the future. no accident. it’s common knowledge, every ruling is now just the next step for further manipulation+exploitation of legal language. law school graduates make careers out of it.

sad but true.

your 2 cents isn’t a bit more important/valid than anyone else’s. no one’s.
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Josh
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Re: Lisa Miller case

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:28 pm
Josh wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:54 pm Ken and Szdfan,

No child has two mothers. Janet is not that child’s “mother” and never was. Every child has exactly one mother.
My oldest daughter has a biological mother who she has never met and an adoptive mother who is my wife.

Families are often much more complex than your simplistic biological notions.
It is still absurd to claim a child has two mothers and no father. Every child has exactly one mother and one father.

In some special cases, a birth parent abandons a child, or else can't raise them. Then their birth parent is replaced by someone else.

What doesn't make any sense at all is for some random, unrelated woman who has no connection to the child at all to be treated as if they are a "mother". She was not. And she was never even married to the child's mother - they simply had a "civil union". I once had a "civil union" in the sense my roommate and I signed a lease and a bank account together so we could rent an apartment; I sure hope he can't assert his parental rights and try to steal my children from me.
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