Holdeman Transitions ?

[Josh]

FLDS was not horse & buggy and they also did not practice the veiling.

Not really sure what you expect us to do to differentiate ourselves from them. Our clothing styles are completely different too. At a broad level the men wear pants and the women wear dresses.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to wear opposite clothing to what FLDS did and does. Should the men wear something other than basic pants?

[Valerie]

FLDS was not horse & buggy and they also did not practice the veiling.

Not really sure what you expect us to do to differentiate ourselves from them. Our clothing styles are completely different too. At a broad level the men wear pants and the women wear dresses.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to wear opposite clothing to what FLDS did and does. Should the men wear something other than basic pants?

I am sorry I am not communicating very clearly- again, my point is about 'why' people we know get concerns when they see us following a sect that seems so distinct- there may be red flags to them BASED ON cults that were so exposed on t.v., newspapers, during the FLDS controversy based on the cult leader- you have to realize in most parts of the country, there are no plain or conservative Anabaptists- I never saw people dressed like Amish and Mennonites until I visited PA when i was 33- people who are not familiar with them would possibly make connections to cults where people are told what to wear and what to do and what not to do, etc- extra Biblical rules, controlled by leadership who had broke away from the mainstream- I am not saying they are RIGHT but I am trying to convey why not to get offended if those people show concerns, based on the fact there have been many cults where people get brainwashed.

I saw a horse & buggy in this so I may have wrongly assumed they used them in their community- perhaps they borrowed this from Amish?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/things-didnt-f ... d=30827256

[Josh]

FLDS had little contact with the outside, period, certainly no contact with Amish who aren't anywhere close to FLDS settlements. Rural people like to use horses. Most people who own horses aren't Amish. FLDS people live essentially a rural lifestyle that hasn't changed in decades.

Personally I am more concerned about people being brainwashed by their TV than by cult leaders. We had an FLDS lady on this forum for a while.

[Soloist]

I'll admit the Holdeman church near me was very weird, but I wouldn't label them a cult. Most of the things I noticed were either doctrine that this one crazy guy claimed (everyone else looked at him like he was from mars) or just the head covering and the style of dress was different then I was used to.

I've heard this sort of stuff said about almost every group depending on your perspective... My church would have been called controlling or a cult by others as the local Mennonite churches would have.

[Josh]

I'll admit the Holdeman church near me was very weird, but I wouldn't label them a cult. Most of the things I noticed were either doctrine that this one crazy guy claimed (everyone else looked at him like he was from mars) or just the head covering and the style of dress was different then I was used to.

I've heard this sort of stuff said about almost every group depending on your perspective... My church would have been called controlling or a cult by others as the local Mennonite churches would have.

I've noticed that different Anabaptist and Christian groups do a brisk business calling each other cults, accusing each other of not believing in salvation by grace, accusing each other of being hypocrites, and accusing each other of possibly being a false church.

We all need to knock it off.

[KingdomBuilder]

I've noticed that different Anabaptist and Christian groups do a brisk business calling each other cults, accusing each other of not believing in salvation by grace, accusing each other of being hypocrites, and accusing each other of possibly being a false church.

We all need to knock it off.

It's an easy mindset to adopt. I think it could tie in to the mindsets we've developed as a result of globalization. We are constantly focusing on "those guys" and issues beyond our current spheres- so focused, perhaps, that we often fail to address the issues that taint those near and dear to us. It's important to think of eternal matters, sure, but I say we'd do good to develop a more small-scale focus, too.

[ohio jones]

I saw a horse & buggy in this so I may have wrongly assumed they used them in their community- perhaps they borrowed this from Amish?

First the PCs borrowing photos from the Amish, now this ...

The caption mentions time standing still, and the buggy conveys that thought, but there is no explicit claim that the buggy is FLDS. The context does give that impression, though.

[Josh]

The caption mentions time standing still, and the buggy conveys that thought, but there is no explicit claim that the buggy is FLDS. The context does give that impression, though.

I think this qualifies as "fake news"

[Sudsy]

Actually because Josh has spoken so highly of the COGIC Holdeman, I began to investigate more about it and ran across these videos that appear to give a different picture. Then I read through this one which gets into more detail and it does give me some concern, if what is said be true or some of it is true. http://www.theholdemans.com/apology.htm

I have no problem with investigating the things Evangelicals are doing or the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic or Protestants or Pentecostals or others and realizing that none of us have created the perfect church group and won't. I also believe we shouldn't conclude that every local church or group within these categories are following Christ the same and that we all have skeletons in our closet. I think we must always be careful of any group who suggests they are the one true church. I grew up in one and that church was named 'The Full Gospel' indicating all the others preached a partial gospel of sorts. I underwent a fair amount of brainwashing until I could get out and take a different look at what I had been taught. This is hard to do when you experience so many good things in a group. I still miss some of the good things about Pentecostalism. However, it has changed so much since I was a lad I hardly recognize it.

Anyway, this is not a 'witch hunt' but rather a concern just as others have concerns about my MB church and how worldly it might appear to others here. Interestingly today's sermon was 'Being in the world, but no of the world' from an Anabaptist perspective and the history of separation and withdrawal rather than engagement.

Not intending to offend anyone and you are welcome to question our church ways at any time.

[lesterb]

There is a lot to like about the Holdeman church. I would have three basic concerns I would need to sort through before joining them.

1. The idea of being the only true church. I think some of them are backing away from that, but their official literature would still intimate that. Though in actual practice most of their leaders wouldn't actually denounce every other church as not being part of God's church.

2. Their authoritarian position and the shunning that is related to it. Again, I think some of this has been mitigated somewhat over the years. But they still seem to be pretty strong on this idea of discerning spirits. In my experience that is one of the easiest things to misuse in church life, because people who don't agree with you normally have a "wrong" spirit.

3. Their position on divorce and remarriage. That's been hashed around enough in the history of this board and its predecessor that I probably don't need to enlarge on that.

The first two, I could probably live with, if necessary. The third, I'm not sure I could.