Natural (God given) immunity is superior

[nett]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Get real Ken. That is not "priests aborting children". That's a religious ceremony, where they mix together a harmless but cursed concoction that will expose infidelity.

[nett]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Ken, please keep your approval of infanticide out of this discussion. I agree that abortion is murder, I do not endorse it. I am a New Testament follower of Jesus, not one to justify any taking of life from the Old law.

Neither do endorse the stream of lies about using baby parts in pharmaceuticals and the self righteous pharisaical pomposity and heartlessness of those who advocate death and breath damnation to those whose lives are being save by a vaccine that was tested using material from a child aborted long ago. That child died unnecessarily, but she did not die in vain.

There you go again accusing people of lying, while ignoring your own direct lies in the earlier part of this threat. Care to clarify who's lying exactly? You've already accused me, and then disengaged. Is soloist lying? John Hurt, Josh, Bootstrap?

That exact argument can be made for attending a ritual where a child is sacrificed in exchange for a good harvest, of good weather. "The child will be killed anyways, so why shouldn't I get the benefit of it".

I find that justification disgusting, and it reeks of a selfish desire for individual health at the cost of another's life. But I haven't condemned you for it. It's not my place.

Your condemnation of those of us with convictions is pretty vile. Even Ken doesn't speak these kinds of condemning, evil words, despite his staunch disagreement.

[Ken]

Jeremiah 1:(5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,

Luke 1:15 - and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

It looks like the Bible recognizes that life begins at conception, or even before you are formed in the belly.

I can't find an exception that allows you to murder children in the womb before "6 weeks" in the Bible.

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Get real Ken. That is not "priests aborting children". That's a religious ceremony, where they mix together a harmless but cursed concoction that will expose infidelity.

And how does God expose the infidelity? Does a scarlet letter appear on the front of the woman's dress in the spirit of Nathaniel Hawthorne? Or does he choose some other method?

[nett]

Look harder. In Numbers 5:11-31 Gods provide explicit instruction to priests for the aborting of children who were conceived out of wedlock. Which are probably the vast majority of abortions in this country.

Get real Ken. That is not "priests aborting children". That's a religious ceremony, where they mix together a harmless but cursed concoction that will expose infidelity.

And how does God expose the infidelity? Does a scarlet letter appear on the front of the woman's dress in the spirit of Nathaniel Hawthorne? Or does he choose some other method?

It is believed that the passage refers to a stillbirth or a miscarriage. What's your point? God is sovereign, we are not.

[Ken]

Get real Ken. That is not "priests aborting children". That's a religious ceremony, where they mix together a harmless but cursed concoction that will expose infidelity.

And how does God expose the infidelity? Does a scarlet letter appear on the front of the woman's dress in the spirit of Nathaniel Hawthorne? Or does he choose some other method?

It is believed that the passage refers to a stillbirth or a miscarriage. What's your point? God is sovereign, we are not.

Chemical-induced miscarriage. AKA Chemical Abortion.

There is no way to read this passage without concluding that God and/or the ancient Hebrew society valued judgement against women's infidelity as more important than the life of the unborn. If life of the unborn fetus was sacred then there are an infinite number of other ways that the infidelity of the woman could be demonstrated that didn't involve the killing of the unborn child.

You asked for an exception in the Bible that allows one to "murder" children in the womb before 6 weeks. I provided a specific example of this happening as per your request. In this example, God speaking to Moses endorses the chemical abortion of the fetuses of women who were unfaithful to their husbands. I see no other way to read this passage. And since the New Testament is completely silent on the topic of abortion, all we have are Old Testament texts.

[Neto]

I had to look up that passage (in Number 5) and read it again, as in all of my years of reading the Scriptures from cover to cover (many times) I have never heard anyone even assume that this pertained to an existing pregnancy. I can see now that some might think that, but barrenness was considered under the control of God, and I would have taken it to mean that from that time on, she would never be able to conceive, or carry a child to live birth. Other children were taken from life as a result of judgement, like the child born to Bathsheba & David. But abortion rights assumes that the child is not a human being, and furthermore, it puts the control in human hands. Quite different.

[Neto]

And how does God expose the infidelity? Does a scarlet letter appear on the front of the woman's dress in the spirit of Nathaniel Hawthorne? Or does he choose some other method?

It is believed that the passage refers to a stillbirth or a miscarriage. What's your point? God is sovereign, we are not.

Chemical-induced miscarriage. AKA Chemical Abortion.

There is no way to read this passage without concluding that God and/or the ancient Hebrew society valued judgement against women's infidelity as more important than the life of the unborn. If life of the unborn fetus was sacred then there are an infinite number of other ways that the infidelity of the woman could be demonstrated that didn't involve the killing of the unborn child.

You asked for an exception in the Bible that allows one to "murder" children in the womb before 6 weeks. I provided a specific example of this happening as per your request. In this example, God speaking to Moses endorses the chemical abortion of the fetuses of women who were unfaithful to their husbands. I see no other way to read this passage. And since the New Testament is completely silent on the topic of abortion, all we have are Old Testament texts.

You are also looking at these instructions from a cause-effect scientific point of view, not in a ceremonial context. I rather imagine that a test using these instructions (on a pregnant animal, of course, not a human) would not result in the outcome the Scripture sets out.

[Ken]

I had to look up that passage (in Number 5) and read it again, as in all of my years of reading the Scriptures from cover to cover (many times) I have never heard anyone even assume that this pertained to an existing pregnancy. I can see now that some might think that, but barrenness was considered under the control of God, and I would have taken it to mean that from that time on, she would never be able to conceive, or carry a child to live birth. Other children were taken from life as a result of judgement, like the child born to Bathsheba & David. But abortion rights assumes that the child is not a human being, and furthermore, it puts the control in human hands. Quite different.

What do you think Numbers 5:27 means if not chemical-induced miscarriage? According to the New International Version translation:

If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

Chemical-induced abortion was well-known in ancient times. There were many herbs and concoctions that women used to end pregnancies in Roman times and before.

[Neto]

For those who have died of Covid, was "God given" death superior to vaccines? If a vaccine had the death rate associated with just taking your chances, it would never be approved.

This is my biggest concern in all of these discussions. It is so uncharacteristic of Mennonites to be so wrapped up in conspiracy theories and obscure testing protocols as wild theological speculations that so many are completely lacking in compassion and unwilling to make little sacrifices for their neighbors. Someone here even thinks wearing a mask is somehow a satanic ritual or something of that sort. That sort of thing does not come out of a heart full of Love for neighbor. Followers of Jesus should be humble about this, accept the fact that scientists and doctors, not out of greed or hidden satanic purposes, are using their God given talents to protect and heal people from this awful disease. I see better examples of that compassion and humility coming from churches and even secular sources that show me that the Kingdom of God is breaking in where it is being rejected by all too many of my Mennonite brothers and sisters. I read on this forum very little about how we can respond to this crisis with all those characteristics of Mennonitism that used to be the hallmark of our faith - humility, compassion, sacrifice, faith. Let's restore that in our lives and hearts.

People are dying, people are grieving, people will die still, often unnecessarily given the proven success of vaccines and treatments in use. Do not contribute to that death toll and grief. Have a heart for those who are sick and for those who grieve. Have the heart of Jesus.

Well not the Anabaptists in Holmes County- they have a 16% vaccination rate according to the paper I picked up yesterday. We we're at the Haiti benefit auction Friday and Saturday, Brad gets a couple thousand and a Baptist were not one of them wearing a mask or worrying about social distancing. I've talked to several that have made it through the covid experience some worse than others but they knew where to get treatment and they got treatment. Some have passed like what happens with pneumonia and flu and other things that people pass away from every year. Holmes county is notorious for having health stores that carry tons of products to prevent people from getting sick because they don't carry health insurance so they have become quite good at knowing how to treat themselves or where to get what they need. So the anabaptist that we've been exposed to in Holmes county handle life completely different which is why we went there every week during the pandemic, it was like going from hell to heaven. Come to think about it it was the Alabama Baptist people we met that started me thinking about more natural path routes to take

Anabaptists are not the only residents in Holmes Country. There have been a lot of deaths here, too. Where the Amish fall in this context is that they tend to be fatalistic. All sorts of accidents, even cases where carelessness was clearly involved, are dismissed as "the will of God", saying "It was just their time". My own father-in-law died due to complications caused by Covid, and a number of members of our congregation have lost family members as well. Others who lived through it are permanently negatively affected by it, with loss of lung capacity, especially.
Unfortunately the conspiracy theories also tend to run rampant in areas where there is a low educational level, creating a reluctance to seek reputable medical assistance. And I'm not picking on Amish & conservative Mennonites, either. Holmes County is a part of greater Appalachia, and many non-anabaptists are typical of the common characterization of that region. Medical Quackery is one on them.

[Neto]

I had to look up that passage (in Number 5) and read it again, as in all of my years of reading the Scriptures from cover to cover (many times) I have never heard anyone even assume that this pertained to an existing pregnancy. I can see now that some might think that, but barrenness was considered under the control of God, and I would have taken it to mean that from that time on, she would never be able to conceive, or carry a child to live birth. Other children were taken from life as a result of judgement, like the child born to Bathsheba & David. But abortion rights assumes that the child is not a human being, and furthermore, it puts the control in human hands. Quite different.

What do you think Numbers 5:27 means if not chemical-induced miscarriage? According to the New International Version translation:

If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

Chemical-induced abortion was know in ancient times. There were many herbs and concoctions that women used to end pregnancies in Roman times and before.

Have someone test it on a pregnant rat. What I'm saying is that I do not think it is meant to be taken as an effective method medically, of bringing about barrenness in a non ceremonial setting. The context of the text is couched in ceremonial language, so I think it should be taken that way.