the mark of the beast

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
Outsider

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by Outsider »

gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:46 pm Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.
I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:
Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
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gcdonner

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by gcdonner »

Outsider wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:21 pm
gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:02 am
Outsider wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:28 pm


2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(A) and our being gathered to him,(B) we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter(C)—asserting that the day of the Lord(D) has already come.(E) 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you(F) in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(G) occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed,(H) the man doomed to destruction.
The above passage should give us cause to consider how Paul had defined the 'coming of the Lord..." if the Thessalonians were considering that it had already taken place. Evidently, Paul didn't expect the coming of the Lord to end time as is often taught, or that the Thessalonians would be "taken away", ie, into heaven at his coming. Lots to consider in those few sentences. What are we missing as we read Paul's explanation and what had the Thessalonians been taught that would lead them to believe that the "second coming" may have already taken place? Obviously, it wasn't the "rapture" they were thinking about in this context. Were they?
I would think it was preaching against Gnostic teachings which involved heaven already here, within the believer, and the hidden knowledge being that we were already "as angels in heaven", etc. Among other hereses.
Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.
As I've said to you before, G.C., I don't believe the second coming of Christ is something that anyone would fail to note.
The Jews failed to note his first coming. Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray, not everyone else. How can we explain Rev 1:7  "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him..." unless Jesus' statement regarding many of his disciples being yet alive when he returned?
Luk_9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Paul himself fully expected to be alive when Christ returned. Perhaps it is our concept of the presence/parousia of Jesus that is lacking?
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gcdonner

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by gcdonner »

temporal1 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:53 pm In another MN thread - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11&start=100
an MD thread had the same subject line:

MD 2006 / Mark of the Beast / author: frankenstein / 38 replies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071205070 ... m.php?f=28

i couldn’t get it to open.
george, were you there? do you remember frankenstein? (this was before my MD time.)
I expect that I was there, but it is unavailable because MD no longer exists. I'm surprised that the thread page still is extant. I vaguely remember frankenstein, but please recall that that was 15 years ago... I was still a young man. :lol: :D
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gcdonner

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by gcdonner »

Outsider wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:29 pm
gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:46 pm Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.
I think many things have already come to pass, but some things are yet to come. The two witnesses, for example. I also believe there will be a tribulation, but that Christians will be in the midst of it, though untouched, to witness for the Lord:
Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
I fully expect that the 2 witnesses were there during the time leading up to the destruction of the temple. There have been many tribulations and Jesus indicated that his disciples would see that tribulation and the reason that it was Mat 24:21  "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  was not because of the scale of it, though it was great in scale, but the reason for it, that made it unique in the annals of time. It signaled the end of the OC and the coming to full age of the NC. That will never happen again.
We tend to divorce things from scripture to fit our imaginations rather than adjusting our imaginations to fit what scripture actually says. Scripture clearly says that 666 was the number of "a man" (Rev 13:18). How can you dismiss that?
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Outsider

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by Outsider »

gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:08 pm We tend to divorce things from scripture to fit our imaginations rather than adjusting our imaginations to fit what scripture actually says. Scripture clearly says that 666 was the number of "a man" (Rev 13:18). How can you dismiss that?
A man who was only of importance for his office. Nero, his Imperial name, and Caesar, his Imperial title.
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temporal1

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by temporal1 »

gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:02 pm
temporal1 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:53 pm In another MN thread - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11&start=100
an MD thread had the same subject line:

MD 2006 / Mark of the Beast / author: frankenstein / 38 replies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071205070 ... m.php?f=28

i couldn’t get it to open.
george, were you there? do you remember frankenstein? (this was before my MD time.)
I expect that I was there, but it is unavailable because MD no longer exists. I'm surprised that the thread page still is extant. I vaguely remember frankenstein, but please recall that that was 15 years ago... I was still a young man. :lol: :D

your username appears along with several others current on MN! :blah: a slice of history.
gospelpianist became VeryAlive, do you recall? she was a sweetheart. one of many found there.
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Outsider

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by Outsider »

gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:57 pm
The Jews failed to note his first coming. Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray, not everyone else. How can we explain Rev 1:7  "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him..." unless Jesus' statement regarding many of his disciples being yet alive when he returned?
Luk_9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
I don't take the "they also which pierced him" literally. "For as much as you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me."


Paul himself fully expected to be alive when Christ returned. Perhaps it is our concept of the presence/parousia of Jesus that is lacking?
Did he?

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
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gcdonner

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by gcdonner »

Outsider wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:22 pm
gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:57 pm
The Jews failed to note his first coming. Jesus told his disciples to watch and pray, not everyone else. How can we explain Rev 1:7  "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him..." unless Jesus' statement regarding many of his disciples being yet alive when he returned?
Luk_9:27  But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
I don't take the "they also which pierced him" literally. "For as much as you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me."

And how do you determine what to take literally and what not to? I suppose that you also don't take the statement that Jesus made to John the revelator literally, when he said,
...for the time is at hand. Rev 1:3 orRev_22:10  And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Or
Rev_3:11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev_22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev_22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev_22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
He who created time, speaks in time, with language relevant to time so that we human beings have no excuses for not understanding what he was saying. Let's make "at hand" in Revelation mean 2000 years and counting but not Paul's same statement in 2Tim4:6 (see below)? I guess Paul is still waiting for his departure yet.
Or how about Peter's statement:
1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 
Mat_3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat_26:18  And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat_26:45  Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mat_26:46  Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.
Mar_1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar_14:42  Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
Luk_21:30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk_21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Joh_2:13  And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh_7:2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Joh_11:55  And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Joh_19:42  There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Rom_13:12  The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Php_4:5  Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
2Th_2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul himself fully expected to be alive when Christ returned. Perhaps it is our concept of the presence/parousia of Jesus that is lacking?
Did he?

2 Timothy 4:6-8
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 
Paul's opinion changed towards the end of his life, as he knew that he would soon face death at the hand of Nero, but that does not negate the fact that when he spoke to the Thessalonians a few years earlier, he fully expected to be with them at the coming of the Lord.
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gcdonner

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by gcdonner »

temporal1 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:20 pm
gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:02 pm
temporal1 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:53 pm In another MN thread - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11&start=100
an MD thread had the same subject line:

MD 2006 / Mark of the Beast / author: frankenstein / 38 replies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071205070 ... m.php?f=28

i couldn’t get it to open.
george, were you there? do you remember frankenstein? (this was before my MD time.)
I expect that I was there, but it is unavailable because MD no longer exists. I'm surprised that the thread page still is extant. I vaguely remember frankenstein, but please recall that that was 15 years ago... I was still a young man. :lol: :D

your username appears along with several others current on MN! :blah: a slice of history.
gospelpianist became VeryAlive, do you recall? she was a sweetheart. one of many found there.
I was on MN very early in the beginning when it was mostly teenaged Mennonites...
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Outsider

Re: the mark of the beast

Post by Outsider »

gcdonner wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:09 pm Paul's opinion changed towards the end of his life, as he knew that he would soon face death at the hand of Nero, but that does not negate the fact that when he spoke to the Thessalonians a few years earlier, he fully expected to be with them at the coming of the Lord.
I think there was a sense of excitement throughout the early church about the impending "coming of the lord". Because no one knew when he would come. "Like a thief in the night." I think it was an encouragement to strive to have the mark of the Lord :angel on their foreheads, which probably all should be more fervent about receiving than trying to figure out "what is the mark of the beast" :twisted: (which I also don't think is literal)

The "coming of the Kingdom in power" which Jesus prophesied many would see was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

You could also take "those who pierced him" literally if you consider those who are raised up from the dead. :hug:
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