the mark of the beast

[Heirbyadoption]

Thank you for your reply, George.

[gcdonner]

Thank you for your reply, George.

I hope it wasn't too wordy...

[Outsider]

How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(A) and our being gathered to him,(B) we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter(C)—asserting that the day of the Lord(D) has already come.(E) 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you(F) in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(G) occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed,(H) the man doomed to destruction.

[Outsider]

Pulling scripture out of it's context always leads to error. Sometimes we strain and a gnat to swallow an elephant.
BTW, I started my preaching experiences being a full on pre-trib Millennialist. You probably aren't old enough to remember 1988 and the great rush of prophetic books and proclamations that issued forth since it was 40 years since the establishment of the nation of Israel... The ilks of Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) and Edgar Wisenant (88 reasons why the rapture will happen in 1988). Understanding the principles of scripture is much better than speculating on current events...............which are not considered at all in scripture. How many beasts of Revelation could you list off the top of your head, just in the 20th century alone? Which one is your favorite right now? Anyone want to play "pin the tail on the beast" with me?
Another complete pretext is referencing the anti-christ in the book of Revelation, or the "man of sin"... Try as I might, I haven't found them there yet...

I don't believe in a "pre-tribulation rapture", either. But I also don't believe the "Antichrist" is a person, but a spirit. I don't believe "the beast 666" is a man, rather the seat of a man vested in an Empire of men. "The man of sin" is the mind of men who rule- a symbol rather than an individual. I *do* see that in the minds of men...

[gcdonner]

How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(A) and our being gathered to him,(B) we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter(C)—asserting that the day of the Lord(D) has already come.(E) 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you(F) in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(G) occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed,(H) the man doomed to destruction.

The above passage should give us cause to consider how Paul had defined the 'coming of the Lord..." if the Thessalonians were considering that it had already taken place. Evidently, Paul didn't expect the coming of the Lord to end time as is often taught, or that the Thessalonians would be "taken away", ie, into heaven at his coming. Lots to consider in those few sentences. What are we missing as we read Paul's explanation and what had the Thessalonians been taught that would lead them to believe that the "second coming" may have already taken place? Obviously, it wasn't the "rapture" they were thinking about in this context. Were they?

[gcdonner]

Pulling scripture out of it's context always leads to error. Sometimes we strain and a gnat to swallow an elephant.
BTW, I started my preaching experiences being a full on pre-trib Millennialist. You probably aren't old enough to remember 1988 and the great rush of prophetic books and proclamations that issued forth since it was 40 years since the establishment of the nation of Israel... The ilks of Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) and Edgar Wisenant (88 reasons why the rapture will happen in 1988). Understanding the principles of scripture is much better than speculating on current events...............which are not considered at all in scripture. How many beasts of Revelation could you list off the top of your head, just in the 20th century alone? Which one is your favorite right now? Anyone want to play "pin the tail on the beast" with me?
Another complete pretext is referencing the anti-christ in the book of Revelation, or the "man of sin"... Try as I might, I haven't found them there yet...

I don't believe in a "pre-tribulation rapture", either. But I also don't believe the "Antichrist" is a person, but a spirit. I don't believe "the beast 666" is a man, rather the seat of a man vested in an Empire of men. "The man of sin" is the mind of men who rule- a symbol rather than an individual. I *do* see that in the minds of men...

John tells us that there were already many anti-christs in his day, so it is for sure that it wasn't or won't be one person. The 666 number is the number of a man, and according to early church history was most commonly thought to refer to Nero. I concur, since I see the book of Revelation describing the end of the Old Covenant, which happened shortly after his death, which was in AD68. The "end" took place in AD70 with the final destruction of all the types and shadows of the OC, as a result of the overthrow and destruction/burning of the city of Jerusalem and the temple there.
This is foreshadowed in Heb 12:18-29 which compares the OC with the NC and prophecies the end of all the things that could be "shaken". This was told just shortly before the end, as the book of Hebrews was written just a few short years before in AD64.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

[Outsider]

John tells us that there were already many anti-christs in his day, so it is for sure that it wasn't or won't be one person. The 666 number is the number of a man, and according to early church history was most commonly thought to refer to Nero. I concur, since I see the book of Revelation describing the end of the Old Covenant, which happened shortly after his death, which was in AD68. The "end" took place in AD70 with the final destruction of all the types and shadows of the OC, as a result of the overthrow and destruction/burning of the city of Jerusalem and the temple there.
This is foreshadowed in Heb 12:18-29 which compares the OC with the NC and prophecies the end of all the things that could be "shaken". This was told just shortly before the end, as the book of Hebrews was written just a few short years before in AD64.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

Yes, that happened. When the temple fell, when the shadow of heaven's court on Earth passed away,

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The devil had been fallen for ages when the old covenant passed, I'm pretty sure all are agreed in this "For Satan has always been a liar, and a man-killer". He lived on the Earth, but still had access to the Heavenly Court through it's shadow here:

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [e]Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to [f]Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

This happens under the rule of the "Great Red Dragon" (Pagan Rome). The seat is transferred to Byzantine Rome, and is now Modern Western Roman (Anglo-British).

[gcdonner]

Sounds like we are both preterists of one sort or another.

[temporal1]

In another MN thread - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11&start=100
an MD thread had the same subject line:

MD 2006 / Mark of the Beast / author: frankenstein / 38 replies.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071205070 ... m.php?f=28

i couldn’t get it to open.
george, were you there? do you remember frankenstein? (this was before my MD time.)

[Outsider]

How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ(A) and our being gathered to him,(B) we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter(C)—asserting that the day of the Lord(D) has already come.(E) 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you(F) in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion(G) occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed,(H) the man doomed to destruction.

The above passage should give us cause to consider how Paul had defined the 'coming of the Lord..." if the Thessalonians were considering that it had already taken place. Evidently, Paul didn't expect the coming of the Lord to end time as is often taught, or that the Thessalonians would be "taken away", ie, into heaven at his coming. Lots to consider in those few sentences. What are we missing as we read Paul's explanation and what had the Thessalonians been taught that would lead them to believe that the "second coming" may have already taken place? Obviously, it wasn't the "rapture" they were thinking about in this context. Were they?

I would think it was preaching against Gnostic teachings which involved heaven already here, within the believer, and the hidden knowledge being that we were already "as angels in heaven", etc. Among other hereses.

Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:1
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

As I've said to you before, G.C., I don't believe the second coming of Christ is something that anyone would fail to note.