Charity Ministries and assorted other topics

[Jazman]

...Charity tended to draw in "seeker people" (from both old-order/conservative Anabaptism and as well as radical homeschool types from outside of Anabaptism) who were generally strongly independent-minded idealists, discontent with their current faith context. This worked great at first, as people with much zeal for their faith and ideals gathered around a strong leader (Denny) in an idealistic movement. It was truly electric in its day! But, in the long run, this makeup of people contributed to the difficulty Charity had in keeping everyone going the same direction...

I appreciated this post, Dan.

This is what I was alluding to in my post yesterday when I talked about friction. Though many probably didn't realize it at the time, being a part of the Charity movement was only one of multiple stops on their journey and not the final destination.

Most of us have heard stories of Old Order and Conservative folks who at one time aligned themselves with the Charity movement and now attend evangelical churches or even no church at all. Perhaps less talked about are those whose first taste of the Anabaptist movement was through Charity and are now find themselves in Conservative or Old Order groups.

Perhaps what I am about to state is an over-simplification of a multi-faceted problem, but the Charity movement simply became a meeting point on the journey of individuals who were traveling two different directions.

QP

QP, how many personal anecdotal numbers can you guess regarding people going in two difference directions? Ie how many were NMB (non-menno-background) coming to Charity that went more conservative and how many were MB that went more liberal/evangelical/none? How about counting families?

[Jazman]

Good catch Josh.

First, I really wasn't wanting to paint anyone in "rebellion" so much as to point out that, in general, research shows that a higher percentage of children of authoritarian parents do not follow their parents faith when they reach an age of independence (relative to more "balanced" parenting styles).

Second, as I reread my post, I hope it is apparent that I was pointing out generalizations about the movement as it existed when we were connected to it - that it drew in independent-minded seekers, that it had an authoritarian bent, etc. I think most who were involved in those days would concur. Of course, like with any generalization, it is important to recognize that not everyone who was a part of Charity fit into this mold.

I wonder if jazman would like to weigh in on this topic.

I will soon... discussing Charity always brings up a swirl of thoughts, memories and complexities. I'll expound on some in the near future.

[ABC 123]

Without going into particulars but having first hand knowledge from the early 90s on in Ohio, there was no distinct cross movement of people.

What ended up happening was there were a lot of young families at the beginning from both MB and NMB. Enthusiasm was high. When the little children from those families grew up to be late teens, early 20s there was a mass Exodus of those young people. It seems like the parents reevaluated and also lost interest. It was a one generation movement.

Personally I think it was an easier sell in pre-Facebook days.

Too, there were some other teachings that gained a foothold for various reasons.

Generally speaking, maybe 30% of the families stayed some form of conservative Anabaptists. The rest, regardless of background, did not. Not too many of the NMB people I knew stayed in Anabaptists churches and quite a few of the MB ones ended up seeking a life elsewhere as well.

[Jazman]

A few random observations and points of reminisce here: (My time in Charity: late pre-teen to late teens, almost very beginning of movement to early 90's)
1. I got a good heavy dose of skepticism about american evangelicalism... I remember a Denny devotional or intro in a Wed evening meeting about how he'd spent the day listening to the local Christian radio station, most likely WDAC or maybe WJTL. He was non too impressed and I remember inwardly scoffing at that (because we/I did listen to it a lot) Funny thing is; now I agree with him. That station has probably done more damage to the mennonite/anabaptist people/churches in my area than almost anything else. So I credit him for discerning its waywardness in some way.
2. The authoritarianism of some leaders did great long-term damage. Somehow, by God's grace and maybe my go-along/get-along personality kept me from embittering conflicts. But I remember incidents that must have hurt deeply for those involved. I can't think of any of my close friends or their families in those years, that haven't completely left mennodom/anabaptism and I believe it's from an overreaction to the leadership personalities during those years... Ironically some of those people are now evangelical, hyper-political-theocratic belligerent authoritarians themselves... especially towards Mennonites/Anabaptists!
3. Finally on a more personal level. There was a very strong emotional, wretched-urgency and charismatic/passionate tone in all the spirituality, the personalities and the public face of everything... so that someone like me - quiet, non-confrontational, thinker - very easily came to believe that in order to be a saved, honoring-God, "on fire" Christian, you had to be like that. And of course I couldn't measure up to that, and so I was in near constant condemnation and fear. I never "felt" in. I always felt lost. I felt convicted and headed for hell at. every. single. altar call and that was post-sinner's prayer, post baptism... It was years and years before I grew out of that...

That's all for now. Maybe I'll think of some more random stuff like this...maybe some more positives as well.

[Jazman]

Adding to/clarifying #2. I don't think it was just the authoritarianism that caused people to leave. Ironically, the base fundamentalist, revivalist, emotionalist spirituality laid the groundwork for people to find the same thing elsewhere, but without the Charity dress and lifestyle code.

[Wayne in Maine]

Adding to/clarifying #2. I don't think it was just the authoritarianism that caused people to leave. Ironically, the base fundamentalist, revivalist, emotionalist spirituality laid the groundwork for people to find the same thing elsewhere, but without the Charity dress and lifestyle code.

That's been my observation of many Charity leavers. The theology and spiritual values of revivalism and fundamentalism just do not support the lifestyle of Anabaptism.

[Valerie]

Adding to/clarifying #2. I don't think it was just the authoritarianism that caused people to leave. Ironically, the base fundamentalist, revivalist, emotionalist spirituality laid the groundwork for people to find the same thing elsewhere, but without the Charity dress and lifestyle code.

That's been my observation of many Charity leavers. The theology and spiritual values of revivalism and fundamentalism just do not support the lifestyle of Anabaptism.

I think some of my Anabaptist friends, seem to recognize the Holy Spirit at work in people outside of Anabaptists and so it leads them to question things. They can see fruit, mission, submission, etc- without the distinctions of dress or other Anabaptist specific doctrine- once they recognize this they are more open to see that God is at work outside of Anabaptism as well, so then it becomes where they feel a good fit.
I myself struggle with this too, when I start judging other denominations and yet clearly see God at work. I believe Denny laid out the Anabaptist vision very well, the 'revivalism' and emotion, I believe, he saw in the early Anabaptists is what he seemed to be trying to bring back. Not copy other evangelical churches. Has anyone here ever listened to Denny's Early Anabaptist series from 2008?
Honestly, I still see it as spiritual pride got ahold of them and they were chastened.

[Josh]

Interestingly, Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals have cut way back on the emotionalism and pitched fervent appeals. The pastors I know emphasise gradual lifestyle change, and teach the new birth is not an instant process - salvation is, but sanctification can take a lifetime. They focus on making sure a candidate for baptism is ready for intense discipleship for the next few months.

In a sense, they are becoming more Anabaptist than some Anabaptists. They certainly are reaching the lost in places I simply am not and where unfortunately us Anabaptists aren't either.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Interestingly, Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals have cut way back on the emotionalism and pitched fervent appeals. The pastors I know emphasise gradual lifestyle change, and teach the new birth is not an instant process - salvation is, but sanctification can take a lifetime. They focus on making sure a candidate for baptism is ready for intense discipleship for the next few months.

In a sense, they are becoming more Anabaptist than some Anabaptists. They certainly are reaching the lost in places I simply am not and where unfortunately us Anabaptists aren't either.

Yeah. One of my former pastors once said "If you create an appetite you will have to feed it." I doubt that many can keep up that high emotional pitch year after year, but some try......

J.M.

[MaxPC]

Yeah. One of my former pastors once said "If you create an appetite you will have to feed it." I doubt that many can keep up that high emotional pitch year after year, but some try......

J.M.

I've seen those situations suffer from burnout eventually. It's exhausting.