Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
YorkandAdams
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by YorkandAdams »

Sudsy wrote:
Josh wrote:I recently ran into a situation where someone is planning the mission trips they want to go on based on the schedule of volleyball tournaments 5 months in advance. Without sharing too many personal details, some things are really out of whack about this.

Maybe the Easterns are on to something here.
I think some see these trips as a vacation for themselves more than primarily a trip to build up the Kingdom. When I have heard some of their testimonies on returning, it really puzzles me on what was most important to them. Then there are others who are thrilled to share how they lead someone to the Lord for the first time in their life. Those I eagerly wait to hear.
You hit one of my biggest frustrations with these types of trips. Take a two-week "mission trip" which includes more sightseeing and fun activities than actual work. Girls come back with plenty of pictures of themselves holding cute babies and the guys come back with a bunch of them playing sports with local kids. While these things are fine, they often seem to be the most important part of the mission. It makes me question who is getting the glory from these types of trips? God or the people going?
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Wade
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Wade »

Once Again wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:
You don't win people to Christ by being one of them, rather by being one with the world then you are the world and really have nothing to win them too.
"To live out," and share the gospel of the kingdom of God will seperate us from the world because we are separated into Him.

Why would teaching our children about God rather than letting the world teach them contrary to God be a contradiction?
Does that not rather affirm our commitment to His ways?
Thanks Wade for the 'push back'. When I look at how Jesus operated and how Paul said he became all things to all men so some would be saved, I don't see 'being one with the world' as things like playing volleyball with an unsaved person. To me, being separate from the world has more to do with putting the same value in the things an unsaved person puts value in. Temporal things like pursuing fame and fortune. It often is establishing relationships with the unsaved, not participating in their sins, that Jesus and the apostles were able to talk to people in their environments and share the truth. Where we separate ourselves is from activities of the world that scripture points to as not becoming a believer. Areas that scripture says those that do them will not inherit the Kingdom of God. We are no longer sinners in that way if we are born again.

The Pharisees in Jesus day pointed their finger at Jesus as being a 'friend of sinners', something they thought was ungodly. But Jesus was more concerned about those He came to save than maintaining a certain opinion of religious people on piety. What we 'win them to' is to Christ and I agree that being in the company of the unsaved should reflect the light we have within. We won't just join them in any open sinful practises as we share our faith.

About schooling, I know many here are in disagreement with my view on isolated schooling. I believe the teaching of the scriptures needs to be done in the home and be such to include where worldly teachings are wrong. I have seen those who have gone through isolated Christian schoolings that never learn how to talk to an unsaved person. Some don't know how to talk to them about anything and are afraid to even say hello. So, in my view, this kind of isolation was not how Jesus and the NT Christians operated. They did have close community life as believers but they reached their entire known world and Christianity spread rapidly. There is something very different if our primary growth in a church is through raising children. If we are the 'quiet in the land' and that means we don't reach out and go where Jesus would go to reach the lost, then we are not NT believers, are we ?

Christianity is not meant to be a life that is free from confrontation. Jesus said if He was hated, we would be also. The Gospel is offensive to those who chose to not believe. Some will just separate themselves from our company while others will be drawn to the light. The Holy Spirit is the source of our boldness and love for the unsaved.

Anyway, push back on these views anytime as we sort through our orthopraxy. Within Anabaptism we have quite a spread of views on what Christ following looks like in some areas.

You are right that learning to engage with and influence lost people is essential for us as Christians. But all young children and even many teens are not ready to be put into an environment where everything they have been taught at home is undermined and contradicted by the adults in authority over them. Children in public school spend about 8 of their waking hours in that environment. That can be deadly to their spiritual life. To the best of my knowledge, early Christians did not have to contend with anything like the modern American public school system.
That's right.

And to address you some Sudsy;. I was raised unchurched and grew up only knowing the world and know exactly what the public system is, does, and stands for. I also then have a very easy time talking with non-Christian people. If only there was a church I could take these people too...
I agree that I have seen huge gaps in perspective that causes stumbling blocks but I am not interested in placing my children under the authority of people encouraging and teaching the lies and sins of the world so they can know how to talk well with them.
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MaxPC
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by MaxPC »

If I may, I'd like to share my understanding to help Sudsy's query about separation from the culture.

First, I do understand Wade's position because our family also does home-school. Jesus withdrew to the desert and often went apart to solitude. As the Son of God He did have ministry to others and yet he also balanced that with prayerful solitude.

Research and my own experience reinforces the idea that children in their formative years need good role models and their primary role models are their parents. The more time they spend being formed directly by their Christian parents, the more likely it is they will come to love God as their parents do.

Even as adults we are warned in Scripture that we need to be careful about where and with whom we keep company with non-Christians:
Proverbs 23:20-21 Do not remain in the company of drunkards nor with those who gorge themselves at meals. For they soon come to ruin and are clothed in rags.

Proverbs 13:20 Walk with wise men and you will become wise, but the companion of fools will fare badly.

Then there is the teaching we should strengthen our discipleship to be able to avoid conforming to the secular influences around us.
Romans 12: 1-2, 12-21 I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.

I won't belabor this post with more Scripture verses because I know you have the intellectual and spiritual wherewithal to research it further. Suffice it to say I think it's good to protect young and impressionable children away from the world's lies and scheming so that their foundation can be firmly formed in Christ. That firm foundation will help them when they must deal with the world as adults and when, as mature disciples, they take their place in the Kingdom of God bringing the message of salvation to a broken world. One more I think needs mentioning is Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
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Sudsy
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Sudsy »

Once Again wrote: You are right that learning to engage with and influence lost people is essential for us as Christians. But all young children and even many teens are not ready to be put into an environment where everything they have been taught at home is undermined and contradicted by the adults in authority over them. Children in public school spend about 8 of their waking hours in that environment. That can be deadly to their spiritual life. To the best of my knowledge, early Christians did not have to contend with anything like the modern American public school system.
I understand that argument and take it that the statement "everything they have been taught at home is undermined and contradicted by the adults in authority over them" is hyperbole. I would have to know more about what children are confronted with today in secular schools and how often these satanic teachings are being taught to understand their spiritual challenges. I don't doubt there is more of a challenge to their faith than in my youth in some areas but I am of the view that the testing of our faith is a good thing. As for young, pre-teenagers, I think the sooner they can learn to deal with the culture around them as a Christian, the better. I think there is perhaps too much human protection and not enough trust in God's protection when children are in their early years. But the quality of their spiritual life at home is extremely important to learning spiritual warfare.

Perhaps in another thread sometime, folks like me can be more enlightened as to what these modern day challenges are to children and if isolation is the key to spiritual growth. I see youth that are growing up in secular educational settings that are being a real witness of their faith. Others of them are like the seed that fell among the thorns and did not last. I guess the question in my mind is how much exposure to worldly people and worldly ideas should children have and at what age should they be let go and to what degree to learn how to war spiritually. A good soldier is one who is trained and tested in engaging the enemy. How young should this training begin and how ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:If I may, I'd like to share my understanding to help Sudsy's query about separation from the culture.

First, I do understand Wade's position because our family also does home-school. Jesus withdrew to the desert and often went apart to solitude. As the Son of God He did have ministry to others and yet he also balanced that with prayerful solitude.

Research and my own experience reinforces the idea that children in their formative years need good role models and their primary role models are their parents. The more time they spend being formed directly by their Christian parents, the more likely it is they will come to love God as their parents do.

Even as adults we are warned in Scripture that we need to be careful about where and with whom we keep company with non-Christians:
Proverbs 23:20-21 Do not remain in the company of drunkards nor with those who gorge themselves at meals. For they soon come to ruin and are clothed in rags.

Proverbs 13:20 Walk with wise men and you will become wise, but the companion of fools will fare badly.

Then there is the teaching we should strengthen our discipleship to be able to avoid conforming to the secular influences around us.
Romans 12: 1-2, 12-21 I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.

I won't belabor this post with more Scripture verses because I know you have the intellectual and spiritual wherewithal to research it further. Suffice it to say I think it's good to protect young and impressionable children away from the world's lies and scheming so that their foundation can be firmly formed in Christ. That firm foundation will help them when they must deal with the world as adults and when, as mature disciples, they take their place in the Kingdom of God bringing the message of salvation to a broken world. One more I think needs mentioning is Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Thanks Max, good thoughts to ponder.

I agree that there are scriptures that tell us to be careful who we hang out with, as you have shared a couple, and I think this especially applies to those who are not out to seek the salvation of others. When we look at Jesus who asks Levi to come with him, He goes for dinner, “And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collector​s​ and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answers, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Mark 2:13-17). Just hanging out with the unsaved was not what Jesus was about nor should we be.

I think the Romans 12:1-2 text points out we must have a renewing of our minds so we are not conformed to how the world views things. Without armouring ourselves with spiritual armour, we can be drawn into the world's way of viewing things and then into their sinning. So, preparedness as Jesus did by getting alone with the Father and His obvious knowing of the OT scriptures and being Spirit filled gave Him the renewed mind needed to not be conformed to the world's ways.

My question for those who have home schooled or private Christian schooled would be - Has this resulted in these children being able to engage with the world as they got older to lead people to the Lord ? Or did they get locked into a Christian community mindset that stays away from any possible worldly influence ? Just curious as to how this approach has worked out in calling sinner's to repentance.
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Josh
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Josh »

Most EPMC people would never let their children spend time around Catholics. I wonder how MaxPC would feel about that “separation”?
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Sudsy
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Sudsy »

I think at some point we get get into brainwashing if we protect young people from exposure to other beliefs. And when beliefs taught are not allowed to be questioned and/or unanimity is forced by use of consequences and/or leaders can never be questioned, I am suspect that this kind of brainwashing is harmful.

I believe my parents meant well by protecting me from error inside and outside Christianity but I did pick up from that some bad attitudes especially in regard to Christians in certain other Christian faith groups. I didn't separate differing Christian beliefs from those holding them and I didn't have a very Christlike attitude toward those who held those views.
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Once Again
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Once Again »

I attend a church where the majority of children go to public school, and all my nieces and nephews attend public school. We homeschool our children and attend a coop, so I see both "isolated" and 'non-isolated" children. So from that perspective, here are some of my thoughts about public schooling versus homeschooling/private christian schools.

The parents in the church I attend who send their children to public school say that the most difficult thing for their children to deal with is peer pressure. One of my friends began homeschooling because her oldest child (who was in the upper grades of elementary school) began to have such a confrontational attitude toward her parents. This girl was imitating her friends' behavior (that was the way they treated their parents). So my friend and her husband took their daughter out of that environment, and their relationship with their daughter quickly improved. In addition to that, my friend felt like her daughter was losing her innocence too soon from the things she was seeing and hearing from her peers at school. I think, and it is ONLY my opinion, that children in public school are exposed to too much, way too soon by their peers, and every parent ought to spend a lot of time and prayer in deciding how they will deal with the dilemma. If they are going to send their children to public school they need to be proactive and really get their child ready-mentally, emotionally and spiritually- for what they are going to face.

I'm out of time, more later.
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MaxPC
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by MaxPC »

Sudsy wrote: My question for those who have home schooled or private Christian schooled would be - Has this resulted in these children being able to engage with the world as they got older to lead people to the Lord ? Or did they get locked into a Christian community mindset that stays away from any possible worldly influence ? Just curious as to how this approach has worked out in calling sinner's to repentance.
I think we agree on several things, Sudsy: we just frame our words differently.

Regarding your question above, our children did not get locked into a community mindset because Plain Catholics don't live in a Plain community. Our children grew into adulthood knowing how to maintain their discipleship while reaching out and interacting with others: they watched how their parents interact with others and model from that.
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Sudsy
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Re: Recently attended an EPMC Bible School AMA

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:
Sudsy wrote: My question for those who have home schooled or private Christian schooled would be - Has this resulted in these children being able to engage with the world as they got older to lead people to the Lord ? Or did they get locked into a Christian community mindset that stays away from any possible worldly influence ? Just curious as to how this approach has worked out in calling sinner's to repentance.
I think we agree on several things, Sudsy: we just frame our words differently.

Regarding your question above, our children did not get locked into a community mindset because Plain Catholics don't live in a Plain community. Our children grew into adulthood knowing how to maintain their discipleship while reaching out and interacting with others: they watched how their parents interact with others and model from that.
So, if I understand correctly, a Plain Catholic lives amongst non-plain Catholics and lives out their faith as demonstrated by their parents over the 'peer pressure' of non-plain Catholics who do not chose that way of life ? I can see that being a challenge but getting good results. Thankyou.
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