Internet Trolls on discussion groups

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:It does appear that there is a lot about Max & the PCs that doesn't add up. I agree that Max should be more open about things. But MN's motto is "Where Mennonites and others connect".
But connecting requires some level of authenticity. The motto is not "Where Mennonites and others connect and spin fantastic stories with fake websites and nobody cares if they are telling the truth or asks people to answer questions if they seem to be lying". If that's what we want, we should change the motto.

His strategy is to evade the question, attack the character of the person who asks, and campaign against that person in PMs. That is not connecting. And it is toxic.
GaryK wrote:I would be interested in hearing what damage or harm you and Boot feel Max's involvement on MN has caused to MN or serious minded members. I found your description "a nice friendly, amiable one but a troll nonetheless" interesting.
I don't find his PMs to other people to be amiable at all in the way they discuss people who question what he says.

And I think the damage is a lot like the damage in dysfunctional families who agree to live in denial about the alcoholic parent, "just be nice", and avoid anything that would stir the waters. Agreeing to live in denial together is always damaging.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:Have you tried?
Yes, several times over the years.
Did you get any answers?
No. Not even a response.

But I was asking for information on where I could find Plain Catholics, information on their history, etc. That might be the reason.

Beyond that, Max is here. Why shouldn't he respond, directly and openly? Why are we even discussing whether the right way to do this is to turn to that website? We keep asking if there isn't something we could do on our side to do better because we know that we can't really ask Max to do even the basics we would expect of someone we are in relationship with.

For instance, we know he will not engage with us in this thread. But I bet a whole lot of people are getting PMs. I wonder how "amiable" those PMs are.
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GaryK
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by GaryK »

Josh wrote:Okay, so speaking up about lying and deception is worse than the lying and deception itself?
That's not at all what I'm suggesting Josh and I think you know that. Numerous people have suggested that the lying and deception has been adequately spoken about and that it's time to let this go. It keeps going and going. Some of us I believe are concerned that this may be developing into something more than just speaking up about lying and deception and has crossed into something else. JM has suggested that this has become a fight to the bitter end and a power struggle. Do we really want this sort of thing on MN?
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:
Josh wrote:Okay, so speaking up about lying and deception is worse than the lying and deception itself?
That's not at all what I'm suggesting Josh and I think you know that. Numerous people have suggested that the lying and deception has been adequately spoken about and that it's time to let this go. It keeps going and going. Some of us I believe are concerned that this may be developing into something more than just speaking up about lying and deception and has crossed into something else. JM has suggested that this has become a fight to the bitter end and a power struggle. Do we really want this sort of thing on MN?
It dies out eventually, then it pops up again from time to time. The problem never really goes away. When we stop discussing it, some people come to believe in PCs, so when the topic comes up again, they are very surprised to learn what some of us already know.

I don't think there's a fight to the bitter end. There probably won't be an end. It will just keep coming up from time to time to remind the newcomers and some who have forgotten and people who discover Plain Catholics here via web searches. We will discuss this in a thread on, say, Swiss Brethren, when some of the claims are a bit too outrageous to ignore. Max will continue to evade the issue. We will "play nice" most of the time, from time to time we will go back to bringing this up.

I could only imagine an end if (1) the moderators stepped in with an anti-trolling policy, (2) someone were to actually dox Max (which is pretty invasive), or (3) Max were to repent. I like the third option best. But the most likely option is that we will continue as is, bringing this up from time to time.

Wayne has a point. An anti-trolling policy is probably the best option available without cooperation from Max.
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by GaryK »

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Josh wrote:Okay, so speaking up about lying and deception is worse than the lying and deception itself?
That's not at all what I'm suggesting Josh and I think you know that. Numerous people have suggested that the lying and deception has been adequately spoken about and that it's time to let this go. It keeps going and going. Some of us I believe are concerned that this may be developing into something more than just speaking up about lying and deception and has crossed into something else. JM has suggested that this has become a fight to the bitter end and a power struggle. Do we really want this sort of thing on MN?
It dies out eventually, then it pops up again from time to time. The problem never really goes away. When we stop discussing it, some people come to believe in PCs, so when the topic comes up again, they are very surprised to learn what some of us already know.

I don't think there's a fight to the bitter end. There probably won't be an end. It will just keep coming up from time to time to remind the newcomers and some who have forgotten and people who discover Plain Catholics here via web searches. We will discuss this in a thread on, say, Swiss Brethren, when some of the claims are a bit too outrageous to ignore. Max will continue to evade the issue. We will "play nice" most of the time, from time to time we will go back to bringing this up.

I could only imagine an end if (1) the moderators stepped in with an anti-trolling policy, (2) someone were to actually dox Max (which is pretty invasive), or (3) Max were to repent. I like the third option best. But the most likely option is that we will continue as is, bringing this up from time to time.

Wayne has a point. An anti-trolling policy is probably the best option available without cooperation from Max.
I find it interesting that you feel Wayne's investigation into this is too invasive. If this whole issue is as important to MN as you suggest, why wouldn't you want him exposed? It seems even you think there is a line that, when crossed, goes too far. So who is the authority on lines?
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

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Wayne in Maine wrote:I regards to MennoNet I think we the moderators should consider establishing a policy on trolls and on people posting under false pretense.
I can not speak for the other moderators, but I have no desire to police everyone. I am sure there are several here who are not exactly who they claim. Some claim to be compassionate Christians, but I see them act in ways that makes me question that. So how do "we" police that?

Jesus gives an answer to that. Worry about the log in your own eye...

As I stated previously, if Max or any other PC wants to leave the posts that question and challenge even the existence on Plain Catholics, then so be it. It will shed more doubt and turn more away then draw. So maybe it is actually a good thing to leave it so questioned.

I see no need to set a "Policy" when shining light works so much better. This allows those who care to deal with it while those who do not really care can just ignore it. Again, no one is forcing anyone to read each thread. If you are feeling compelled to read everything, maybe you have a personality disorder that needs to be looked into. It may be affecting your life in many ways, not all positive.

It is human nature to look at others issues and point them out when ignoring our own brokenness. Plain Anabaptist or Plain Catholics, or mainline anything does not have a right or guarantee to salvation. Only a relationship with Jesus brings that. There are many broken and sick people who have one. Some who dress right and try to show a "holy" face are really wolves in sheep's clothing also. If we would spend time validating one, we would have to be consistent and validate everyone. DO you really want all your personal details like church membership and references from church members made public? I would not.
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by Bootstrap »

GaryK wrote:I find it interesting that you feel Wayne's investigation into this is too invasive. If this whole issue is as important to MN as you suggest, why wouldn't you want him exposed? It seems even you think there is a line that, when crossed, goes too far. So who is the authority on lines?
Hmmmm.

How many people think that's the right thing to do? I think it could be done. I think I'm only a few steps away from knowing who he is, and have not taken the additional steps. Wayne is probably closer than I am.

Is this the right thing or the wrong thing to do, and why? I would want to be pretty solid on feeling this is right before doing it. So far, I'm not quite there.

My guess is that Max will deny anything anyway. And feel persecuted for having his identity exposed.
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:DO you really want all your personal details like church membership and references from church members made public? I would not.
Me neither, but there are other options. For instance, he could provide answers to someone he trusts and we trust, who could provide confirmation. Or just not make so many claims about PCs or himself - nobody else makes this many claims.

We have much less information here on Holdemann Mennonites or Ernie's church or River Brethren or even MC-USA than we do on PCs. I'm not sure that's a good thing. I'd kind of like to see various people start threads on the way they live out their faith in their own (Anabaptist/Mennonite) tradition.
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

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Valerie wrote:We frequent the largest Amish community in the world- & I have never seen an Amish home built like that one- they are always white plain homes-the inside could have been copied after Amish style- it's easy to copy those in one's desire to be plain-

I wouldn't assume that just because there are similarities means the pictures are fake either- many people mistake the Mormon cult FLDS in appearance to Mennonites- but they are two completely different religions-
The issue is not that photos are similar, the issue is that they are identical, they are photos of other things created by other people, and plagiarized on his site with claims that they represent something else. Did you see the thread Fact Check that Viral Photo in Two Clicks? It shows one useful way to identify photos on the Internet.

I think you are talking about the pictures of houses on this page: http://plaincatholic.webs.com/. These pictures are actually of two different houses. The kitchen is a picture from the Amish Farm and House Museum in Lancaster Pennsylvania. Here it is on his page:

Image

This is clipped from the following image (via Pinterest):
The kitchen is characteristic of the 19th century. How is this Old Order Amish kitchen different from other contemporary farm kitchens?

Image
Here is another image of the same kitchen from another angle:
PA, Pennsylvania Dutch Country, Old Order Amish House, Kitchen
Image
The outside of the house is from Cook's Mill in West Virginia. Here is the image on the Plain Catholic site:

Image

Here is the same image on Pinterest:
Image

Note the placement of the bushes and the millstones in both pictures.

Old log cabin on the grounds of Cook's Old Mill in Greenville, WV. This cabin dates from about 1843 and was moved to this site in 1990 from War Ridge, a small community about six miles to the northwest. In the early 20th century it was the home of David and Ora Bailey Lively and their family of ten children. (Photo taken 8/19/12) cooksoldmill.com
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Re: Internet Trolls on discussion groups

Post by ken_sylvania »

Bootstrap wrote: I think you are talking about the pictures of houses on this page: http://plaincatholic.webs.com/. These pictures are actually of two different houses. The kitchen is a picture from the Amish Farm and House Museum in Lancaster Pennsylvania. Here it is on his page:

Image

This is clipped from the following image (via Pinterest):
The kitchen is characteristic of the 19th century. How is this Old Order Amish kitchen different from other contemporary farm kitchens?

Image
Here is another image of the same kitchen from another angle:
PA, Pennsylvania Dutch Country, Old Order Amish House, Kitchen
Image
While we're in investigative mode, let me just comment that if the blue kitchen is the same as the green kitchen, it's been remodeled. Stovepipe is different, lamp is different, the staircase that cuts over the mirror only exists in the blue kitchen. The similarities, though, are striking.
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