Cultural expectations / When societies change

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Ernie
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Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Ernie »

Throughout history, some cultures change rapidly. Others change very slowly or change in spurts.

Those who advocate and support change often don't know how to relate with people who don't want to change, and vice versa.

I think that changing societies should make room for those who don't want to change, as long as there are no Christian principles being violated, and vice versa.

Your thoughts?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Ernie »

Sudsy wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I understand not drawing attention to oneself by dressing immodest but dressing so out dated with the culture is also drawing attention to ourselves, is it not ?
Yes, but who changed? Is it not those who simply follow the surround society?
Should everyone in the world feel pressure to dress "dated"?
A question for clarity - are you saying that, for instance, a cape dress was the original woman's dress for her to be modest ? Or that suspenders did not originate in the early 1800's from a change in men's fashion ? Not sure I understand.
I don't think there is any indication that this is what I was trying to say, but it seems you ask the question in a way that reframes the issues. I don't mind if someone reframe the issues, but I do mind when it is implied in a question about something someone said in order to obscure the way they want to reframe the issue.

There have been times in history when a group of Christians decided to quit trying to keep up with the changes that were happening in the society around them and either stick with their current modest clothing, or adopt a style of modest clothing.

Years later, acculturated Christians question this decision by pointing to the fact that these folks who quit changing are different from everybody else, and that somehow because they are now different from everybody else, they must have the same motivations or giving the same testimony to the world as what is coming from those who pridefully draw attention to themselves.
This is a common line of thought in the Evangelical world (and in other cultures too) and I think it would be good for us to expose this way of thinking anytime it is framed this way.
Last edited by justme on Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Sudsy
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote:Throughout history, some cultures change rapidly. Others change very slowly or change in spurts.

Those who advocate and support change often don't know how to relate with people who don't want to change, and vice versa.

I think that changing societies should make room for those who don't want to change, as long as there are no Christian principles being violated, and vice versa.

Your thoughts?
I think you are right. I know I'm prone to prefer change if I think that change is moving forward. But in questioning those that don't like change on why they don't see the value in the change, I probably come across as too challenging and not accepting that others are not for change for reasons I don't relate to. I tend to think if the change will further building the Kingdom than not changing then we should welcome change. Others see change in that area as doing damage to building the Kingdom and it often is referred to as going down a 'slippery slope'. When I hear the 'slippery slope' argument, I tend to see this as being in a rut whereas others may just be concerned that one change will lead to another and the end result is not good. We often read a comment made here like 'look at where change took that group' and it no doubt was a 'slippery slope' for them.

If we could only agree on if there are 'Christian principles being violated' or not. Some, like myself, may think they are and struggle with letting certain areas remain as they are for some. I have to keep reminding myself of Romans 14 and be careful how I view how other believers ways of serving the Lord.

Well, thats my early Sunday morning confession. Have a wonderful Lord's day !!

Whoops I see there is a new post to read. Well, I'll post this and leave for now as I have to go.
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lesterb
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by lesterb »

One thing that troubles us is that most change in appearance in the West is dictated by Hollywood and the fashion industry. So when I walk down the street with a hair style and clothing that can be recognized as trying to fit into that it doesn't seem to me that it glorifies Christ.

Now I know that you will say that our appearance is simply the world minus a century but I still think that most people would recognize it as representing something even if they don't know what.
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Sudsy
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote:One thing that troubles us is that most change in appearance in the West is dictated by Hollywood and the fashion industry. So when I walk down the street with a hair style and clothing that can be recognized as trying to fit into that it doesn't seem to me that it glorifies Christ.

Now I know that you will say that our appearance is simply the world minus a century but I still think that most people would recognize it as representing something even if they don't know what.
I believe we are set free from the bondage of sin but have become slaves to the law of Christ, the law of love. I like this explanation on what Paul meant when he said we should imitate him when he says he became all things so that some might be saved - http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/bec ... -save-some

Paul's main goal was to win others for Christ. It wasn't to appear perfect or odd but rather to do what can be done within the law of Christ to accomplish this goal. This is how this article ends in summary -
And all the while you keep a vigilant watch over your heart to see if you are in the law of Christ. Here are two tests of how you are doing in this delicate balancing act. I close with these:

Are you becoming more worldly minded than they are becoming spiritually minded? If so, you have probably crossed the line of the law of Christ. Christ does not call you to lose your holiness, but to gain theirs.

Is your passion for winning your friends and family growing, or is it shrinking as you become all things to them? If it is shrinking, then you are not in the law of Christ at that point.

Here is the sum of the matter: Christ died to set us free. Free from the wrath of God, and free from the loveless limits of the law. Free for love and eternal life. Are we using our freedom to make this good news plain? Or are we so separatistic that we have no connection with unbelievers; or are we so worldly they don't know we have anything radically different to offer?
I wonder just how obviously different Paul would be today in our culture with his main aim to win others for Christ. What seems to be missing (myself included) is the same attitude Paul had about the wrath of God coming upon those we know are not Christ followers. How keen and pleading and even sometimes being received as quite offensive to others if we really were trying to rescue them from hell. Does someone really care about me if they believe I am heading for hell and they just don't take the time and effort and persecution that I may give them to tell me about Jesus and His gift of eternal life ?
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Hats Off
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote: Here is the sum of the matter: Christ died to set us free. Free from the wrath of God, and free from the loveless limits of the law. Free for love and eternal life. Are we using our freedom to make this good news plain? Or are we so separatistic that we have no connection with unbelievers; or are we so worldly they don't know we have anything radically different to offer?
Most of us have a tendency to go one way or the other while some moderates may take satisfaction in truly "taking a middle way." Someone pointed out though that there really is no such thing as the moderate middle way. Too often those on that middle way are just crossing over to the other side at a slower pace. Do we really want to or need to go as far as MCUSA and MC Canada have gone? Do we need to change along with society to reject or ignore or explain away Romans 1: 24 - 32 and Jude 5 - 7?

How much of the changes being accepted are really furthering the Kingdom? Is their room in the Kingdom for some of the societal changes being accepted by modern churches? Whose vision is the correct one - the vision where we have to become all things to all people that we may win some or the vision that attempts first of all to keep that which we have while also attempting to win some? What does society expect of those of us who have chosen a different way - do they really expect us to "get with it" and adopt their ways, to move with the times? I think much of society sees the breakdown of respect, the lack of a work ethic, the breakdown of family units. While they would not be ready to commit to our way, they still seem to respect and appreciate these older values that they see in our "plain" communities. When they see us, they look back wistfully to a time and place that was simpler and more orderly. When they see us in public they comment on how well behaved our children are. They talk about how bad things are in school; they talk about how problematic cell phones and other online activities are, but they simply don't see how they can regain what has been lost.
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Sudsy
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Re: Cultural expectations / When societies change

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote: Here is the sum of the matter: Christ died to set us free. Free from the wrath of God, and free from the loveless limits of the law. Free for love and eternal life. Are we using our freedom to make this good news plain? Or are we so separatistic that we have no connection with unbelievers; or are we so worldly they don't know we have anything radically different to offer?
Most of us have a tendency to go one way or the other while some moderates may take satisfaction in truly "taking a middle way." Someone pointed out though that there really is no such thing as the moderate middle way. Too often those on that middle way are just crossing over to the other side at a slower pace. Do we really want to or need to go as far as MCUSA and MC Canada have gone? Do we need to change along with society to reject or ignore or explain away Romans 1: 24 - 32 and Jude 5 - 7?

I think these questions in that previous article I provided a link to, suggest when becoming all things is not being applied correctly. I have friends in MC Canada that don't go along with some of the latest changes of accommodation but few I know ever had any aim as Paul's to seek the salvation of the unchurched. Supporting foreign missions, yes, but winning souls in their own city, no. I don't think the trend to worldliness is about being all things to all men to reach them for Christ. In our area many from Mennonite Canada backgrounds are quite wealthy and the lure for worldly stuff is hard for them to resist. If our main aim is to win others for Christ then these are a good test in our 'becoming all things'.
Are you becoming more worldly minded than they are becoming spiritually minded? If so, you have probably crossed the line of the law of Christ. Christ does not call you to lose your holiness, but to gain theirs.

Is your passion for winning your friends and family growing, or is it shrinking as you become all things to them? If it is shrinking, then you are not in the law of Christ at that point.


How much of the changes being accepted are really furthering the Kingdom? Is their room in the Kingdom for some of the societal changes being accepted by modern churches? Whose vision is the correct one - the vision where we have to become all things to all people that we may win some or the vision that attempts first of all to keep that which we have while also attempting to win some? What does society expect of those of us who have chosen a different way - do they really expect us to "get with it" and adopt their ways, to move with the times? I think much of society sees the breakdown of respect, the lack of a work ethic, the breakdown of family units. While they would not be ready to commit to our way, they still seem to respect and appreciate these older values that they see in our "plain" communities. When they see us, they look back wistfully to a time and place that was simpler and more orderly. When they see us in public they comment on how well behaved our children are. They talk about how bad things are in school; they talk about how problematic cell phones and other online activities are, but they simply don't see how they can regain what has been lost.

Granted some do look back on previous times of greater respect, work ethic, permanent marriage, those things but what you say I have heard mainly from the older generation. In my experience they are not the way our present generation thinks. They couldn't care less about what used to be or are looking at "plain" communities and wanting to be part of them. In general, this generation is looking for an abundant life but they are not seeing an abundant life in us that is attractive enough to give up the way they live. If they are going to be reached for Christ we need to relate to them where they are at.

They need to see our love, peace and joy doesn't depend on circumstances. Sadly, things like the prosperity gospel is telling them these Kingdom characteristics are found in temporal stuff. And all these church fights and splits over who is a better Christian is not very attracting either. What we need are conversions to having Christ abiding within them in such a way that losing their old life is the key to gaining an abundant greater life. And it gets back to what is most important. Is the souls of others most important ? In Paul's view, it is and should be for us all.

Like anything else, results matters. We can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. So, are we having a steady flow of new, unchurched converts joining our fellowships or not ? And are we becoming less worldly minded as we seek the salvation of others ? Imo, these are the questions a fellowship should ask themselves.
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