Okay ladies, your turn!

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Josh
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Valerie wrote: I think this is where the Charity Affiliation hoped to bridge a gap somewhat better?
If I know my history, Charity didn't intend to do that at first, but its kinda what they became. In our area (Lebanon/Lancaster County), the Charity people I know would consider themselves almost "better" than the area Mennonite groups. At least that's the impression I get in most of my affairs with them.
Charity is almost entirely ethnic plain background as well. I really can't think of a worse place for a seeker to go.
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Josh
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Josh »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Josh wrote:I've know plenty of Orthodox girls and have yet to know any who dress in a way I would consider modest. The wear the exact same clothes everybody else does.
As I understand modesty, you are describing it well -- not calling attention to oneself by one's clothing by wearing what everybody else does.
Their intent was to draw attention using fashions designed to do so.
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silentreader
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Basically if we asked ourselves does my deeds and what I wear attract attention to myself or does it attract people to Christ ? How far am I willing to 'fit in', (be in the world) to reach those who need salvation ? [/color]
Obviously, I am not willing to go as far to fit in (be in the world) as you are. We do feel that some colours are immodest; some because they are too flashy, and some because they are too immodest. You will ask what colour is immodest - and I will tell you of the sixteen year old minister's daughter who wore a long modest pattern yellow dress with black tights on under neath. How do I know she wore black tights? You could see the black through the yellow, not very modest in my opinion.

We have often seen where our clothes do attract people for the right reason - when they see us they automatically have ideas about what to expect from us. And I think I will leave it at this - I do not think I need to justify our dress patterns or standards.
Yes, we do draw our lines about being in the world but not of the world. Our Anabapist church wouldn't even equate wearing black tights under a dress to be immodest. You would likely be very uncomfortable with women leading worship in slacks, short sleeves and men in shorts, short sleeves and sandals. Those we don't regard as immodest. But there is a line when someone dresses provocative and in our church, imo, the leaders take a blind eye to this. Most always it is a younger person seeking the attention. I think so many churches are losing their youth, they likely don't want to say something to lose those few that dress provocatively, I don't know. You probably think we all dress provocatively. :)

I think we also are heavily influenced by our church backgrounds when it comes to things like this. I grew up in a conservative evangelical church where the focus was primarily on reaching the lost. The Anabaptist churches in our area, which are many, don't have this evangelistic focus in a preaching sense, except for a couple, our's being one of them. Their growth is almost entirely of churched people, mostly within their community, not the unchurched. They are almost 100% white. Seems their evangelism concept is one of being obviously non-conforming and if outsiders want to know more, they know where to find us. I doubt I will ever stray from an evangelical Anabaptist focus and it will keep popping up in my posts.

Meanwhile I'm curious why other Anabaptists believe what they do on orthopraxy. I agree no one has to justify their practise or standards. I appreciate you sharing that different clothes affect outsiders as 'automatically have ideas about what to expect from us' even though I wonder if this is resulting in leading others to Christ. I wonder how many of us here came to Christ out of inquiring of people wearing certain clothes. Not that it can't happen but I just haven't heard any testimonies of that happening.
Dressing provocatively, as you put it, is probably the next logical step from the casual, but not considered immodest, dress that you describe as being accepted of worship leaders.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I'm not a CA, and I'm certainly not a lady, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to have much of an opinion here.

Many say that the Bible doesn't require or even suggest a "uniform" that is homogenous. That said, it does require modesty, so if the approach a group decides on involves uniformity, I'd rather have that over nothing. Maybe it's not an ideal, but it sure is closer to ideal than it is farther.
The same for head coverings. If uniformity "settles it" and allows a group to focus on more important and fruitful ventures, then I'm all for it.

Some others mentioned jumper dresses. These can be and are being worn by modest Christians all over, so I think they are surely an option.
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Sudsy
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: Dressing provocatively, as you put it, is probably the next logical step from the casual, but not considered immodest, dress that you describe as being accepted of worship leaders.
Imo, it doesn't need to be one of these slippery slope areas. I agree with those who say some have relaxed their views on appropriate adorning and it has resulted in some provocative dress. I remember in our Pentecostal church when views were relaxed on hair styles, makeup and jewelry. Those who had personal convictions in these areas did not change their habits. Some others went to extremes in these areas as if they had a new freedom they always wanted. Others changed a few areas, like minimal jewelry and light makeup. My mom, for instance, would not wear a necklace or bracelet as it reminded her of sins bondage. Wedding rings and broaches and modern hair styles became quite common.

I would argue though that if teaching on what provocative means and will not be tolerated, then a step into more casual dress doesn't need to be a slip into provocative dress. Provocative dress to me means dressing in a way that arouses sexual desire or interest. Such as plunging necklines and peek-a-boo slits in dresses or tight, form fitting wear. Modest Christian women just don't wear provocative clothing.

I think casual clothes, for one reason, became acceptable dress because too much attention had been given to dressing up and it became a pride thing. It can also be a pride thing in casual wear so that doesn't solve that problem. I think it was more of a focus issue looking at the scripture that says that 'man looks on the outward but God looks on the heart' so don't think God cares about what you wear to church but rather He is concerned about your heart. Within a modest, non-provocative, dress style I have to agree, it is our heart attitude toward God and others that is most important.

I think within Anabaptism we have quite a range of what it means to dress in a provocative, immodest way. Our MB church is not very concerned about what you wear and to some degree I think it should be. But thats me, an old guy not totally liberal in my thinking. :)
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Sunbeam
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Sunbeam »

I believe that we do not, in general, have an accurate grasp of what Paul was speaking of when he instructed women to dress in modest apparel.
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Sudsy
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Sudsy »

Sunbeam wrote:I believe that we do not, in general, have an accurate grasp of what Paul was speaking of when he instructed women to dress in modest apparel.
I agree and it might be interesting to consider just what Paul was getting at when he said what he did at that time and where he said it. And what he said about what should be our identifiers.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Their growth is almost entirely of churched people, mostly within their community, not the unchurched. They are almost 100% white.
This was one of the bigger reasons my wife and I were turned off from the Mennonites: They demand you fit their mold:

Born into a Mennonite home.
Attend a Mennonite church.
Go to a Mennonite school.
Marry another Mennonite.
Believe whatever you're told and don't question the Mennonite "code."

Outside of that, you're toast.
Wow, my pastor's father, my pastor, both of his wife's parents, myself, my wife, one of the single gals, and both the father of the bride and groom at a recent wedding in our church miss on at least one of these scores. I will say "WE are here, and here to stay!" I am sorry you had such a bad experience in whatever church you were in, and it appears to have made you cynical. I don't deny that there are bad churches out there, some perhaps with my own conference. But there are ones where people that do not meet the above criteria are welcome, wanted, and with just a little bit of effort fit in nicely.
Sudsy wrote:Their growth is almost entirely of churched people, mostly within their community, not the unchurched. They are almost 100% white.
Have you been to a Black baptist church lately? I have been, and I will tell you my wife and I were VERY much in the minority. Both Mennonites and African Americans do have a distinct church culture. I really don't know how to solve this.....but there are issues on both side. I was involved in a failed effort to do this, and I still bear some of the scars.

J.M.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:I've know plenty of Orthodox girls and have yet to know any who dress in a way I would consider modest. The wear the exact same clothes everybody else does.
Or worse. I have an orthodox family across from my house. I will leave it at that. They think wife and I are nuts.
Josh wrote:A key difference in the plain Anabaptist world is that people who are a members of a plain church actually do have to live up to what is preached from the pulpit.
Or at least give it a good effort, and be willing to accept advice.

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Josh wrote:I've know plenty of Orthodox girls and have yet to know any who dress in a way I would consider modest. The wear the exact same clothes everybody else does.
Or worse. I have an orthodox family across from my house. I will leave it at that. They think wife and I are nuts.
Seems to go both ways for different reasons- I feel in the middle of a tug of war, or as my husband says, in the middle of a firing range where Christians attack Christians-

Maranatha!

(but you do remind me of the story of Jackie Kenaston when she first went from being Baptist, to Charity, and drastically changed her style of clothing- she said she literally ran from her house to the car so her neighbors wouldn't see the way she now dressed as an Anabaptist- until she moved to an area where she was among other Anabaptist that dressed like other Anabaptists- I don't know if she was afraid that her neighbors thought she had joined some kind of cult or what- I realize some people think that-
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