Okay ladies, your turn!

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
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steve-in-kville
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by steve-in-kville »

Sudsy wrote:OK but this is how I sees it. I would say the cape dress is unnecessary.
I wouldn't go as far to say its unnecessary. I will say it is not the only way to modesty. What the cape dress has become is a cheap, quick and easy way for church leadership to control how the women dress. Require the cape dress and they've done their part as far as the rules go.

As has been mentioned, I too find it amusing to see the younger generation wearing a cape dress fit so tight that under garment lines show through. What's the point in that?

Didn't the whole Charity franchise go through a phase where the women wore a matching vest over top of a cape dress? This was mid-90's if I remember right....
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote: OK but this is how I sees it. I would say the cape dress is unnecessary. Imo, what a cape dress does is defines a certain group of Christians separate from other Christians and many of these other Christians do women wear modest modern style clothing. Imo, there is no such thing as not being able to dress modestly outside of a cape dress. I don't see scripture supporting a 'uniform' to identify us separate from the world. Good deeds, yes, not a uniform.

Of course we don't need cape dresses in order for the women to be dressed modestly. But how often does a group lose the cape dress without fairly quickly going down a road where dresses are no longer required or modesty is lost? I would suggest the cape dress has been the best means in helping us hold to a standard of decency and avoid the god of fashion. Teaching is always required but teaching by example is one of the best ways of teaching.
OK, with that said, do we need teaching today in some of our Anabaptist churches regarding modesty ? For sure, including the church I attend. Some dress like 'I dare you to not think how sexy I am' . One of the reasons I left a Pentecostal church was that they had gone from modest dress when I was younger to dressing revealing areas that do attract sexual attention. Not all the women but it seemed no one was going to speak up and guide some younger women. I had to try to find a seat where I could focus on worship and sometimes this immodesty got on the platform. 'In your face immodesty'. It is one thing to control your thoughts out in public but when you are focusing on God distractions of all kinds need to be removed, imo.
With the modest cape dress as standard, it takes less speaking up to reach those who dress to draw attention.
I just don' think the NT points to us creating a distinct uniform to stand out as Christ followers. Our lights are to shine through good deeds, a gentle spirit and love for one another, those areas.
But it sure makes it harder for me to appreciate those areas in someone when I have to avert my eyes, not because of lust but because of embarrassment. An older Mennonite lady was with us as we discussed work on an MDS project - she excelled in "those areas" but I don't appreciate shorts and sleeveless vest type tops on Christian women. I will gladly support my wife and daughters with their plain cape dresses. It is not something that I need to require of them, they wear them gladly.
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote: Of course we don't need cape dresses in order for the women to be dressed modestly. But how often does a group lose the cape dress without fairly quickly going down a road where dresses are no longer required or modesty is lost? I would suggest the cape dress has been the best means in helping us hold to a standard of decency and avoid the god of fashion. Teaching is always required but teaching by example is one of the best ways of teaching.
OK, with that said, do we need teaching today in some of our Anabaptist churches regarding modesty ? For sure, including the church I attend. Some dress like 'I dare you to not think how sexy I am' . One of the reasons I left a Pentecostal church was that they had gone from modest dress when I was younger to dressing revealing areas that do attract sexual attention. Not all the women but it seemed no one was going to speak up and guide some younger women. I had to try to find a seat where I could focus on worship and sometimes this immodesty got on the platform. 'In your face immodesty'. It is one thing to control your thoughts out in public but when you are focusing on God distractions of all kinds need to be removed, imo.
With the modest cape dress as standard, it takes less speaking up to reach those who dress to draw attention.

But it sure makes it harder for me to appreciate those areas in someone when I have to avert my eyes, not because of lust but because of embarrassment. An older Mennonite lady was with us as we discussed work on an MDS project - she excelled in "those areas" but I don't appreciate shorts and sleeveless vest type tops on Christian women. I will gladly support my wife and daughters with their plain cape dresses. It is not something that I need to require of them, they wear them gladly.
Yes, the slippery slope paradigm is a reality. My wife says that dressing with modesty using only two patterns makes it more of a tacit commitment to remember who we are and the discipleship to which we're called. That uniform style of modesty connects us to those commitments in an outward sign to an inner life. For us, to change our dress standards for the sake of "fitting in" with non-Christians is a step on that slippery slope and away from Biblical instruction. That's just our view: YMMV :D
Note: the women and young ladies in our family wear dresses only, usually a dress with a modesty vest or a jumper with a blouse. High necklines, sleeves are never above the elbow. I wear jeans or twills with suspenders and a shirt. We consider undergarments as mandatory. :lol:
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

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MaxPC wrote:Yes, the slippery slope paradigm is a reality. My wife says that dressing with modesty using only two patterns makes it more of a tacit commitment to remember who we are and the discipleship to which we're called. That uniform style of modesty connects us to those commitments in an outward sign to an inner life. For us, to change our dress standards for the sake of "fitting in" with non-Christians is a step on that slippery slope and away from Biblical instruction. That's just our view: YMMV :D
What about fitting in with Catholics in the churches you attend? Wouldn't a Cape Dress make you stand out in a Catholic church? Aren't there other forms of modest clothing that would fit in better in that setting?
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Ernie »

Most of the ladies at our church wear cape dresses even though it is not required. Not sure how long this will be the case. It depends a lot on who they choose as peers. Most people like to dress like their peers.
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote: OK but this is how I sees it. I would say the cape dress is unnecessary. Imo, what a cape dress does is defines a certain group of Christians separate from other Christians and many of these other Christians do women wear modest modern style clothing. Imo, there is no such thing as not being able to dress modestly outside of a cape dress. I don't see scripture supporting a 'uniform' to identify us separate from the world. Good deeds, yes, not a uniform.

Of course we don't need cape dresses in order for the women to be dressed modestly. But how often does a group lose the cape dress without fairly quickly going down a road where dresses are no longer required or modesty is lost? I would suggest the cape dress has been the best means in helping us hold to a standard of decency and avoid the god of fashion. Teaching is always required but teaching by example is one of the best ways of teaching.

I find it suspect that if leaving the cape dress resulted in a slippery slope to immodesty that the understanding of what is important about being modest was not either understood or was not a personal conviction but rather a standard to be obeyed.
OK, with that said, do we need teaching today in some of our Anabaptist churches regarding modesty ? For sure, including the church I attend. Some dress like 'I dare you to not think how sexy I am' . One of the reasons I left a Pentecostal church was that they had gone from modest dress when I was younger to dressing revealing areas that do attract sexual attention. Not all the women but it seemed no one was going to speak up and guide some younger women. I had to try to find a seat where I could focus on worship and sometimes this immodesty got on the platform. 'In your face immodesty'. It is one thing to control your thoughts out in public but when you are focusing on God distractions of all kinds need to be removed, imo.
With the modest cape dress as standard, it takes less speaking up to reach those who dress to draw attention.

Yes, I can see it would. In that sense I can understand it's use but some take it further to restrict colours and patterns which to me is not about modesty. God put colour into this world and to go black and white, so to speak, doesn't reflect His glory in how He gave us colour. I don't get a drab looking style of dress and it speaks more death to me than life. But thats me.
I just don' think the NT points to us creating a distinct uniform to stand out as Christ followers. Our lights are to shine through good deeds, a gentle spirit and love for one another, those areas.
But it sure makes it harder for me to appreciate those areas in someone when I have to avert my eyes, not because of lust but because of embarrassment. An older Mennonite lady was with us as we discussed work on an MDS project - she excelled in "those areas" but I don't appreciate shorts and sleeveless vest type tops on Christian women. I will gladly support my wife and daughters with their plain cape dresses. It is not something that I need to require of them, they wear them gladly.

Yes, if they are doing it unto the Lord and not because someone says they need to, I think Romans 14 is support for that. However, Paul also said he became all things to all men that some should be saved. So within a culture there is opportunity to be modest, as even unsaved people can dress modestly, and not draw attention to ourselves in a way that people cannot hear what we say because we look so out of place. I think Paul was saying we can fit in to a point of having people listen to us and not being conformed to the world has more to do with not putting value into the things the world values.

Basically if we asked ourselves does my deeds and what I wear attract attention to myself or does it attract people to Christ ? How far am I willing to 'fit in', (be in the world) to reach those who need salvation ?

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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

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Hmmm.

I suspect some of this discussion involves questions of taste and culture. Which is fine - these are important parts of being human - but it's good to acknowledge them.
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

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However, Paul also said he became all things to all men that some should be saved.
I've always felt we need to be careful of this quote from Paul because those who wish to sow sinful abominations in church communities also use it. For example those who want to force a church community to accept homosexual behaviors will often use this quote even though Paul made it clear homosexuality is an abomination. Paul never said he would become all things including homosexual in order to save some. There are lines that should never be crossed because it may lead to the loss of faith. Human interaction yields a very powerful influence on us whether we acknowledge that fact or not. It's much easier to go down that slippery slope than anyone wants to admit. The long view history of many churches proves that point admirably.
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
Basically if we asked ourselves does my deeds and what I wear attract attention to myself or does it attract people to Christ ? How far am I willing to 'fit in', (be in the world) to reach those who need salvation ? [/color]
Obviously, I am not willing to go as far to fit in (be in the world) as you are. We do feel that some colours are immodest; some because they are too flashy, and some because they are too immodest. You will ask what colour is immodest - and I will tell you of the sixteen year old minister's daughter who wore a long modest pattern yellow dress with black tights on under neath. How do I know she wore black tights? You could see the black through the yellow, not very modest in my opinion.

We have often seen where our clothes do attract people for the right reason - when they see us they automatically have ideas about what to expect from us. And I think I will leave it at this - I do not think I need to justify our dress patterns or standards.
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Re: Okay ladies, your turn!

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:
However, Paul also said he became all things to all men that some should be saved.
I've always felt we need to be careful of this quote from Paul because those who wish to sow sinful abominations in church communities also use it. For example those who want to force a church community to accept homosexual behaviors will often use this quote even though Paul made it clear homosexuality is an abomination. Paul never said he would become all things including homosexual in order to save some. There are lines that should never be crossed because it may lead to the loss of faith. Human interaction yields a very powerful influence on us whether we acknowledge that fact or not. It's much easier to go down that slippery slope than anyone wants to admit. The long view history of many churches proves that point admirably.
Sure.

But surely you aren't saying that women wearing the kinds of clothing I have typically seen in Catholic churches is equivalent to homosexuality. Or are you actually saying that Catholic women should all start wearing Cape Dresses?
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