Sudsy wrote:Valerie wrote:Sudsy wrote:A different opinion - I'm thankful for the lady pastor that pastored the church where my parents both were saved in and for the bible teaching she provided us. I wouldn't be too sure about what is unacceptable in the eyes of God and what judgment God will issue if this judgment means punishment for those who sit under their ministry. Sorry but I'm one who appreciates and has been blessed many times by women preachers. Many are being saved and growing in the Lord through their preaching. And I love their preaching here on this forum too. Keep it up ladies even if some of you don't care for it being labelled as preaching. Perhaps there should be a separate forum for men preaching only ? OK, I gave my opinion.
Sudsy, I was part of a ministry for several years our church had that helped people with any kind of stronghold or addiction in their life- when the leader left, and then the next, probably because I had been there awhile, they asked me to take it over and I would not be put in a 'leading' position in a ministry- the history of the Church and the Scriptures, and the fact that Jesus appointed the 'twelve' men to surround Himself with as His disciples and followers and then His Apostles- while although many women helped out, and ministered to him and others, they were not put in positions of authority in the Church over the men- to me, what you suggest is in direct violation of Scripture about this- why would God contradict himself?
1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority
over the man, but to be in silence.”
A Pastoral role puts the woman in authority over the men, does it not? Where do we have a prophet of God coming out and declaring that God has now changed this command?
The way I look at it is that Paul was giving direction for that situation at that time as he says that 'I' meaning himself does not permit a woman to teach. He was talking more about maintaining order at church so that there was no interruptions during the teaching with asking questions. He also said women should be silent, so if that literally means to be silent then women should not even teach children or even sing but we know that when the Holy Spirit was poured out it says woman would prophesy.
Regarding authority over man, I think a woman or a man should not usurp authority in a church but authority should be determined by the elders that includes the pastors. I don't think God is contradicting Himself but rather giving instructions through Paul for that situation at that time. Our lady pastor did not have the authority to 'call the shots' so to speak and the authority was up to the church board who were primarily men.
I believe if Paul was in our western culture today his instructions would be one that best suits our culture which is quite comfortable with women in lead positions. In other words focus on the primary purpose of furthering the Gospel and don't get side-tracked by areas that are not serving this purpose.
Anyway, within Anabaptism, as well as elsewhere, we have differing ways of viewing what these scriptures are saying. Got to go now but will return later for my chats. Have a nice day !
Our western culture though, was quite ecstatic with the women's liberation movement- women leaving the home in discontent to bring home the bacon & fry it up in the pan, putting our children in day cares & babysitters because after all- life is better when you can take the men's jobs and prove yourself- even, pastoral roles- it was a gay fashion designer, who designed the women's pant suit- well? I guess I'm not comfortable assuming Apostle Paul would see this as a cultural thing- more of a rebellious thing- and look where it's led the west as a whole-
Apostle Paul, when he said women aren't to teach- it wasn't anything to do with 'culture' -
One of your favorite passages to bring up is within this chapter, Sudsy- question- what do you see within this, as the reason Apostle Paul said the woman's role in teaching is- did it have to do with culture, or gender?
1 "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men, 2For kings, and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man, Christ Jesus, 6Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7For this {Whereunto} I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8I will, therefore, that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9In like manner, also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with godly fear {shamefacedness} and sobriety; not with braided {broided} hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I permit {suffer} not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love {charity} and holiness with sobriety.
I don't see that as a cultural reason Apostle Paul said that-
So WHO has the Spirit of the Lord, to go against Scripture teaching on the subject and say that it no longer applies?