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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:15 am
by Josh
steve-in-kville wrote:Hats Off wrote:From my point of view, this conversation is pointless. I will not be drawn into an unending argument about something that I believe to be basic to our way of life and faith. We take the Bible at face value - what it says is what it means. (although we do not raise our hands in prayer.)
I've been watching from the sidelines. I'm almost shocked this thread didn't get deep-sixed by now. Beyond the first page or two, I really didn't get the responses I was hoping for. Better luck next time.
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:07 am
by Sudsy
Josh wrote:steve-in-kville wrote:Hats Off wrote:From my point of view, this conversation is pointless. I will not be drawn into an unending argument about something that I believe to be basic to our way of life and faith. We take the Bible at face value - what it says is what it means. (although we do not raise our hands in prayer.)
I've been watching from the sidelines. I'm almost shocked this thread didn't get deep-sixed by now. Beyond the first page or two, I really didn't get the responses I was hoping for. Better luck next time.
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
In my background, very conservative Pentecostal, we dare not question Pentecostalism and were told beliefs outside Pentecostalism was a step down. RCs were the enemy to stay far from and of course, Calvinists also. Them and their 'once saved always saved'.
There also is danger just accepting a set of beliefs. We could have been raised JW or Mormon or SDA or whatever and just accepted what was preached as the only possible way to view scripture. I appreciate hearing what others believe and why they believe what they do even when I disagree with them. Good thing this forum is not 'closed' to only certain groups of Anabaptists and not us all.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:41 pm
by steve-in-kville
Josh wrote:
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
Trust me, brother. My wife and I are weighing the costs. We're actually surprised we haven't gotten any poison pen letters in the mail from family yet!!
I love this place!!
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:41 pm
by steve-in-kville
steve-in-kville wrote:Josh wrote:
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
Trust me, brother. My wife and I are (and have) weighing the costs. We're actually surprised we haven't gotten any poison pen letters in the mail from family yet!!
I love this place!!
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:51 am
by Josh
steve-in-kville wrote:Josh wrote:
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
Trust me, brother. My wife and I are weighing the costs. We're actually surprised we haven't gotten any poison pen letters in the mail from family yet!!
I love this place!!
Note I never said the things I listed were bad...
There are some things I really miss about a more liberal environment. There are also some things I really miss about a more conservative environment. For example, I'd love to have a conversation about church without my counterparty mentioning within a few minutes that our sisters' clothing is too revealing. That gets frustrating.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:33 am
by Hats Off
Josh wrote:steve-in-kville wrote:Josh wrote:
If you're planning to transition to a more liberal church, you'd best get used to this kind of discussion and it being tolerated. There'll be a lot of it in your future.
Trust me, brother. My wife and I are weighing the costs. We're actually surprised we haven't gotten any poison pen letters in the mail from family yet!!
I love this place!!
Note I never said the things I listed were bad...
There are some things I really miss about a more liberal environment. There are also some things I really miss about a more conservative environment. For example, I'd love to have a conversation about church without my counterparty mentioning within a few minutes that our sisters' clothing is too revealing. That gets frustrating.
Josh, I believe it isn't so much the liberal element that allows open discussion. When we discuss things with open minded peers we can usually discuss freely without getting into the things you mention. However, it seems open minded people are quite rare. If we are confident about where we stand, open discussion is also easier. I have been at the same place for 45 years; you are fairly new where you are so that makes a big difference in how much good discussion you can have. As well, I know fairly well where I can talk freely and when I am unsure, I proceed cautiously until I have confirmed where the other person stands. None of this is a reflection on you personally - it is simply because of your circumstances.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:50 am
by steve-in-kville
Josh wrote:
There are some things I really miss about a more liberal environment. There are also some things I really miss about a more conservative environment. For example, I'd love to have a conversation about church without my counterparty mentioning within a few minutes that our sisters' clothing is too revealing. That gets frustrating.
Each and every congregation I have been exposed to had its own culture. Even within conferences, each one is a special snowflake. That being said, I have seen churches "evolve" over time, as the younger generation comes up and takes responsibility. I've seen groups dissolve to almost nothing, only to run to another group and try turn it into where they came from. I've see a lot of squirrely things in nearly 25 years I've been exposed to the plain folk. Liberal, conservative, whatever. They all have a unique culture.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:32 pm
by haithabu
I would agree with much you have pointed out and stated Haitabu- EXCEPT- I don't believe we are 'born' pagans- is that a common belief in Anabaptism?
I believe that is a common belief in orthodox Christianity - that we are born unsaved and need a work of grace to bring us to Christ. Or maybe it's just me.
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:26 pm
by Valerie
haithabu wrote:I would agree with much you have pointed out and stated Haitabu- EXCEPT- I don't believe we are 'born' pagans- is that a common belief in Anabaptism?
I believe that is a common belief in orthodox Christianity - that we are born unsaved and need a work of grace to bring us to Christ. Or maybe it's just me.
Do you see needing a Savior and being pagan as the same thing?
I remember asking our Orthodox friend who is a Priest if we are born pagans after I originally read that- he said no-
I think it may be a different understanding of what pagan means, yes we are all born inheriting the nature to sin and need a Savior, but they don't teach we are born pagans-
Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:41 pm
by Josh
Valerie wrote:Do you see needing a Savior and being pagan as the same thing?
I remember asking our Orthodox friend who is a Priest if we are born pagans after I originally read that- he said no-
I think it may be a different understanding of what pagan means, yes we are all born inheriting the nature to sin and need a Savior, but they don't teach we are born pagans-
So, Valerie:
(1) Who is born pagan? Children of pagans?
(2) If children of pagans aren't born into sin, what are they born into?
(3) At what point does someone become pagan?