Transition to a more *liberal* church??

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Josh
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Josh »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Josh wrote:Steve,

How do you feel about being in fellowship with churches that have women ministers and fully affirm homosexual behaviour including by ministers?
What's the difference between this and families where the mom "wears the pants" and people that are closet homo's??

I'm half serious and half joking... but I get your point.

(The women preachers and homo thing appear to be a regional thing... but I see your concern!)
Both are unacceptable in the eyes of God, and both will incur judgment on us who sit idly by and commune with such folk.
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Sudsy
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Sudsy »

A different opinion - I'm thankful for the lady pastor that pastored the church where my parents both were saved in and for the bible teaching she provided us. I wouldn't be too sure about what is unacceptable in the eyes of God and what judgment God will issue if this judgment means punishment for those who sit under their ministry. Sorry but I'm one who appreciates and has been blessed many times by women preachers. Many are being saved and growing in the Lord through their preaching. And I love their preaching here on this forum too. Keep it up ladies even if some of you don't care for it being labelled as preaching. Perhaps there should be a separate forum for men preaching only ? OK, I gave my opinion.
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YorkandAdams
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by YorkandAdams »

Josh wrote:
steve-in-kville wrote:
Josh wrote:Steve,

How do you feel about being in fellowship with churches that have women ministers and fully affirm homosexual behaviour including by ministers?
What's the difference between this and families where the mom "wears the pants" and people that are closet homo's??

I'm half serious and half joking... but I get your point.

(The women preachers and homo thing appear to be a regional thing... but I see your concern!)
Both are unacceptable in the eyes of God, and both will incur judgment on us who sit idly by and commune with such folk.
I could not have said this better myself!
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

steve-in-kville wrote:
Josh wrote:Steve,

How do you feel about being in fellowship with churches that have women ministers and fully affirm homosexual behaviour including by ministers?
What's the difference between this and families where the mom "wears the pants" and people that are closet homo's??

I'm half serious and half joking... but I get your point.

(The women preachers and homo thing appear to be a regional thing... but I see your concern!)
Sooner or later, coming to a church near you........

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:A different opinion - I'm thankful for the lady pastor that pastored the church where my parents both were saved in and for the bible teaching she provided us. I wouldn't be too sure about what is unacceptable in the eyes of God and what judgment God will issue if this judgment means punishment for those who sit under their ministry. Sorry but I'm one who appreciates and has been blessed many times by women preachers. Many are being saved and growing in the Lord through their preaching. And I love their preaching here on this forum too. Keep it up ladies even if some of you don't care for it being labelled as preaching. Perhaps there should be a separate forum for men preaching only ? OK, I gave my opinion.
Sudsy, I was part of a ministry for several years our church had that helped people with any kind of stronghold or addiction in their life- when the leader left, and then the next, probably because I had been there awhile, they asked me to take it over and I would not be put in a 'leading' position in a ministry- the history of the Church and the Scriptures, and the fact that Jesus appointed the 'twelve' men to surround Himself with as His disciples and followers and then His Apostles- while although many women helped out, and ministered to him and others, they were not put in positions of authority in the Church over the men- to me, what you suggest is in direct violation of Scripture about this- why would God contradict himself?

1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

A Pastoral role puts the woman in authority over the men, does it not? Where do we have a prophet of God coming out and declaring that God has now changed this command?
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Sudsy
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:A different opinion - I'm thankful for the lady pastor that pastored the church where my parents both were saved in and for the bible teaching she provided us. I wouldn't be too sure about what is unacceptable in the eyes of God and what judgment God will issue if this judgment means punishment for those who sit under their ministry. Sorry but I'm one who appreciates and has been blessed many times by women preachers. Many are being saved and growing in the Lord through their preaching. And I love their preaching here on this forum too. Keep it up ladies even if some of you don't care for it being labelled as preaching. Perhaps there should be a separate forum for men preaching only ? OK, I gave my opinion.
Sudsy, I was part of a ministry for several years our church had that helped people with any kind of stronghold or addiction in their life- when the leader left, and then the next, probably because I had been there awhile, they asked me to take it over and I would not be put in a 'leading' position in a ministry- the history of the Church and the Scriptures, and the fact that Jesus appointed the 'twelve' men to surround Himself with as His disciples and followers and then His Apostles- while although many women helped out, and ministered to him and others, they were not put in positions of authority in the Church over the men- to me, what you suggest is in direct violation of Scripture about this- why would God contradict himself?

1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

A Pastoral role puts the woman in authority over the men, does it not? Where do we have a prophet of God coming out and declaring that God has now changed this command?
The way I look at it is that Paul was giving direction for that situation at that time as he says that 'I' meaning himself does not permit a woman to teach. He was talking more about maintaining order at church so that there was no interruptions during the teaching with asking questions. He also said women should be silent, so if that literally means to be silent then women should not even teach children or even sing but we know that when the Holy Spirit was poured out it says woman would prophesy.

Regarding authority over man, I think a woman or a man should not usurp authority in a church but authority should be determined by the elders that includes the pastors. I don't think God is contradicting Himself but rather giving instructions through Paul for that situation at that time. Our lady pastor did not have the authority to 'call the shots' so to speak and the authority was up to the church board who were primarily men.

I believe if Paul was in our western culture today his instructions would be one that best suits our culture which is quite comfortable with women in lead positions. In other words focus on the primary purpose of furthering the Gospel and don't get side-tracked by areas that are not serving this purpose.

Anyway, within Anabaptism, as well as elsewhere, we have differing ways of viewing what these scriptures are saying. Got to go now but will return later for my chats. Have a nice day !
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Valerie
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:A different opinion - I'm thankful for the lady pastor that pastored the church where my parents both were saved in and for the bible teaching she provided us. I wouldn't be too sure about what is unacceptable in the eyes of God and what judgment God will issue if this judgment means punishment for those who sit under their ministry. Sorry but I'm one who appreciates and has been blessed many times by women preachers. Many are being saved and growing in the Lord through their preaching. And I love their preaching here on this forum too. Keep it up ladies even if some of you don't care for it being labelled as preaching. Perhaps there should be a separate forum for men preaching only ? OK, I gave my opinion.
Sudsy, I was part of a ministry for several years our church had that helped people with any kind of stronghold or addiction in their life- when the leader left, and then the next, probably because I had been there awhile, they asked me to take it over and I would not be put in a 'leading' position in a ministry- the history of the Church and the Scriptures, and the fact that Jesus appointed the 'twelve' men to surround Himself with as His disciples and followers and then His Apostles- while although many women helped out, and ministered to him and others, they were not put in positions of authority in the Church over the men- to me, what you suggest is in direct violation of Scripture about this- why would God contradict himself?

1 Timothy 2:12
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

A Pastoral role puts the woman in authority over the men, does it not? Where do we have a prophet of God coming out and declaring that God has now changed this command?
The way I look at it is that Paul was giving direction for that situation at that time as he says that 'I' meaning himself does not permit a woman to teach. He was talking more about maintaining order at church so that there was no interruptions during the teaching with asking questions. He also said women should be silent, so if that literally means to be silent then women should not even teach children or even sing but we know that when the Holy Spirit was poured out it says woman would prophesy.

Regarding authority over man, I think a woman or a man should not usurp authority in a church but authority should be determined by the elders that includes the pastors. I don't think God is contradicting Himself but rather giving instructions through Paul for that situation at that time. Our lady pastor did not have the authority to 'call the shots' so to speak and the authority was up to the church board who were primarily men.

I believe if Paul was in our western culture today his instructions would be one that best suits our culture which is quite comfortable with women in lead positions. In other words focus on the primary purpose of furthering the Gospel and don't get side-tracked by areas that are not serving this purpose.

Anyway, within Anabaptism, as well as elsewhere, we have differing ways of viewing what these scriptures are saying. Got to go now but will return later for my chats. Have a nice day !
Our western culture though, was quite ecstatic with the women's liberation movement- women leaving the home in discontent to bring home the bacon & fry it up in the pan, putting our children in day cares & babysitters because after all- life is better when you can take the men's jobs and prove yourself- even, pastoral roles- it was a gay fashion designer, who designed the women's pant suit- well? I guess I'm not comfortable assuming Apostle Paul would see this as a cultural thing- more of a rebellious thing- and look where it's led the west as a whole-


Apostle Paul, when he said women aren't to teach- it wasn't anything to do with 'culture' -
One of your favorite passages to bring up is within this chapter, Sudsy- question- what do you see within this, as the reason Apostle Paul said the woman's role in teaching is- did it have to do with culture, or gender?

1 "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men, 2For kings, and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man, Christ Jesus, 6Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7For this {Whereunto} I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8I will, therefore, that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9In like manner, also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with godly fear {shamefacedness} and sobriety; not with braided {broided} hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I permit {suffer} not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love {charity} and holiness with sobriety.

I don't see that as a cultural reason Apostle Paul said that-
So WHO has the Spirit of the Lord, to go against Scripture teaching on the subject and say that it no longer applies?
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Sudsy
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Our western culture though, was quite ecstatic with the women's liberation movement- women leaving the home in discontent to bring home the bacon & fry it up in the pan, putting our children in day cares & babysitters because after all- life is better when you can take the men's jobs and prove yourself- even, pastoral roles- it was a gay fashion designer, who designed the women's pant suit- well? I guess I'm not comfortable assuming Apostle Paul would see this as a cultural thing- more of a rebellious thing- and look where it's led the west as a whole-

I don't think most women in Christian teaching roles are connected with the women's lib movement. Rather they believe they are given a spiritual gift of teaching and should not bury that gift. Personally, I would question a woman with a family to be raised taking on a pastoral role but a single woman called to a pastoral ministry, I have no problem with. I have experienced in my own family and seen the many come to Christ and be taught how to follow Christ through a woman pastor so I cannot just dismiss this just because this text is thought to mean she is serving the Lord in disobedience. And with the education and training available in our culture for a woman to take on a pastoral role, it is not at all similar to Paul's day.


Apostle Paul, when he said women aren't to teach- it wasn't anything to do with 'culture' -
One of your favorite passages to bring up is within this chapter, Sudsy- question- what do you see within this, as the reason Apostle Paul said the woman's role in teaching is- did it have to do with culture, or gender?

Culture. :) As mentioned women in Ephesus at that time were uneducated and secluded and I think it very possible that Paul was warning that the church could be misled by uneducated women teachers who would preach as if they were more authoritative then what men would preach. Paul used the example of Eve being misled and I have no idea what Paul meant by being 'saved in childbearing' (women not bearing children cannot be saved ?). As others in the scripture say, somethings Paul says are hard to understand so I don't think we now have it all figured out either. But today women, when trained, have gifts that can bring blessing to both men and women. If a woman is called to a pastoral role and the church allows for it and she does not become the final authority over men on anything, I have no problem with this in the way I understand this and other related texts on God gifting His children to further His Kingdom.


1 "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men, 2For kings, and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man, Christ Jesus, 6Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7For this {Whereunto} I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8I will, therefore, that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9In like manner, also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with godly fear {shamefacedness} and sobriety; not with braided {broided} hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I permit {suffer} not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love {charity} and holiness with sobriety.

I don't see that as a cultural reason Apostle Paul said that-
So WHO has the Spirit of the Lord, to go against Scripture teaching on the subject and say that it no longer applies?

I don't think it is a matter of 'WHO has the Spirit of the Lord' but rather that although we all are baptised into the one and same Spirit, we still 'see through a glass darkly' and none of us knows the truth about everything. We all will answer to God for His gifts and calling on our lives and it would be risky for a woman to bury her gift or let anyone else bury it based on interpreting whether a text is timeless in application. I listen to and am encouraged and corrected through the preaching of various women teachers, yourself included. And I don't mind the push back on the way I see things. In this case, my experience with the benefits I derive from women preachers outweighs my need to ignore them due to an interpretation of a certain text of scripture.
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Hats Off
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie wrote: So WHO has the Spirit of the Lord, to go against Scripture teaching on the subject and say that it no longer applies?
Modern Mennonite and other up-to-date church leaders.
We all will answer to God for His gifts and calling on our lives and it would be risky for a woman to bury her gift or let anyone else bury it based on interpreting whether a text is timeless in application.
It might be just as dangerous for a woman to ignore scripture to take on a role not intended for her.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Transition to a more *liberal* church??

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I don't think it's ever "risky" to follow the simple Word.
Seems much more risky when someone undertakes a hyper-individualized Christianity in which their personal "convictions" and feelings take precedent over Biblical principles. We know what kind of churches embrace this mentality and we know their fruits that often follow.
I believe these women may be called to mission work, evangelism, etc... But not to be a minister.
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