New Subsection?

[Valerie]

Not defending their practices, but they got burned, drowned and hung. So a little more dramatic then banning them.

The point was Anabaptists were not opposed to proselytizing other Christians in their own churches. And the ancient churches were very familiar with martyrdom themselves as many are . Mennonites should not fear other Christians views

Actually, The point was that a Catholic Forum would ban us. Appealing to ancient churches that had Anabaptists witness in… No Anabaptist Church would burn any Catholic that started witnessing in the church. Their doctrine would be challenged. Likewise on this forum Catholic opinions will be challenged but not banned. We don’t even ban people espousing nonsensical views on Jews.

So really you can’t appeal to ancient tradition to justify a modern Catholic practice on the Anabaptist forum. Without at least admitting that the same would not work the other way around based on that same ancient tradition.

Probably because Catholics were the universal Church since the Church was started (which would include of course EO) God did not prophecy through anyone that He would start the Church over. Now if the Anabaptists had been the Church He started and the Roman Catholics rose up as new in the 15th century the Anabaptists would defend the fact they were the Church Jesus and His Apostles started and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Imagine what fervent prayer may have accomplished instead of an uprising against the Roman Catholic Church- we will never know because instead of long-suffering and fervent prayer, an uprising happened and intruded Church services. No excuse at all for persecuting & killing. Two wrongs did not make a right or today's Church would be different. I think of this too, when fervent prayer is asked of us, do we really pray & fast fervently? If so both the Church and our government may look quite differently. I'm guilty of lacking fervent prayer in these areas.

[QuietlyListening]

From all I have read about Anabaptists, I would say there was fervent prayer among many- all no but many and they were quietly going about rebaptizing and not baptizing their infants/children. I don't remember reading about uprisings being the norm for the Anabaptists. Also while Catholicism may have been the predominate church- it wasn't the only church or THE church. It didn't really start until Constantine so you had the church but no defining name or whatever you want to call it until then.
I'm not sure the government of any country would be different with fervent prayer. Governments are run by nonbelievers and I'm not saying we should not pray for those in gov't but would prayer change the direction? I'm not sure- I do believe as it says in Daniel- God changes the times and seasons, he sets up and removes kings- so ultimately God has a purpose for the different gov'ts and we need to pray and be looking up- not around.

[Soloist]

Probably because Catholics were the universal Church since the Church was started (which would include of course EO) God did not prophecy through anyone that He would start the Church over. Now if the Anabaptists had been the Church He started and the Roman Catholics rose up as new in the 15th century the Anabaptists would defend the fact they were the Church Jesus and His Apostles started and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Imagine what fervent prayer may have accomplished instead of an uprising against the Roman Catholic Church- we will never know because instead of long-suffering and fervent prayer, an uprising happened and intruded Church services. No excuse at all for persecuting & killing. Two wrongs did not make a right or today's Church would be different. I think of this too, when fervent prayer is asked of us, do we really pray & fast fervently? If so both the Church and our government may look quite differently. I'm guilty of lacking fervent prayer in these areas.

And the dead heretics and their churches throughout the ages all the way from the beginning?
Two wrongs don’t make a faithful church either. Except it was a lot more then 2. God started His church but it wasn’t the organization of the EO or Catholic. It was, The Church.

As far as it goes, we descend from the so called true church. Menno Simons had apostolic descended hands laid on him as well as Micheal Sattler.
I don’t think that matters at all but you can’t argue we are not apostolic descended.

God does not preserve a church by murder.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Probably because Catholics were the universal Church since the Church was started (which would include of course EO) God did not prophecy through anyone that He would start the Church over. Now if the Anabaptists had been the Church He started and the Roman Catholics rose up as new in the 15th century the Anabaptists would defend the fact they were the Church Jesus and His Apostles started and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Imagine what fervent prayer may have accomplished instead of an uprising against the Roman Catholic Church- we will never know because instead of long-suffering and fervent prayer, an uprising happened and intruded Church services. No excuse at all for persecuting & killing. Two wrongs did not make a right or today's Church would be different. I think of this too, when fervent prayer is asked of us, do we really pray & fast fervently? If so both the Church and our government may look quite differently. I'm guilty of lacking fervent prayer in these areas.

And the dead heretics and their churches throughout the ages all the way from the beginning?
Two wrongs don’t make a faithful church either. Except it was a lot more then 2. God started His church but it wasn’t the organization of the EO or Catholic. It was, The Church.

As far as it goes, we descend from the so called true church. Menno Simons had apostolic descended hands laid on him as well as Micheal Sattler.
I don’t think that matters at all but you can’t argue we are not apostolic descended.

God does not preserve a church by murder.

Jorge Blaurock, Baltizar Hubbimaier and innumerable others as well. I am also thinking of Wilhelm Reublien, but he apostatized at the end.

[Josh]

Probably because Catholics were the universal Church since the Church was started (which would include of course EO) God did not prophecy through anyone that He would start the Church over. Now if the Anabaptists had been the Church He started and the Roman Catholics rose up as new in the 15th century the Anabaptists would defend the fact they were the Church Jesus and His Apostles started and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Imagine what fervent prayer may have accomplished instead of an uprising against the Roman Catholic Church- we will never know because instead of long-suffering and fervent prayer, an uprising happened and intruded Church services. No excuse at all for persecuting & killing. Two wrongs did not make a right or today's Church would be different. I think of this too, when fervent prayer is asked of us, do we really pray & fast fervently? If so both the Church and our government may look quite differently. I'm guilty of lacking fervent prayer in these areas.

Valerie,

Do you really think the early Anabaptists did not engage in fervent prayer?

Are you aware of how hopelessly corrupt the state church was in the 1500s?

[temporal1]

From all I have read about Anabaptists, I would say there was fervent prayer among many- all no but many and they were quietly going about rebaptizing and not baptizing their infants/children. I don't remember reading about uprisings being the norm for the Anabaptists. Also while Catholicism may have been the predominate church- it wasn't the only church or THE church. It didn't really start until Constantine so you had the church but no defining name or whatever you want to call it until then.

I'm not sure the government of any country would be different with fervent prayer.

Governments are run by nonbelievers and I'm not saying we should not pray for those in gov't but would prayer change the direction? I'm not sure- I do believe as it says in Daniel- God changes the times and seasons, he sets up and removes kings- so ultimately God has a purpose for the different gov'ts and we need to pray and be looking up- not around.

i believe in fervent prayer for all leaders, God has no limits, He has used the ungodly for His perfect purposes.
i don’t think sincere prayer is ever wasted. care must be to pray for God’s will, not our own.

[Valerie]

Probably because Catholics were the universal Church since the Church was started (which would include of course EO) God did not prophecy through anyone that He would start the Church over. Now if the Anabaptists had been the Church He started and the Roman Catholics rose up as new in the 15th century the Anabaptists would defend the fact they were the Church Jesus and His Apostles started and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. Imagine what fervent prayer may have accomplished instead of an uprising against the Roman Catholic Church- we will never know because instead of long-suffering and fervent prayer, an uprising happened and intruded Church services. No excuse at all for persecuting & killing. Two wrongs did not make a right or today's Church would be different. I think of this too, when fervent prayer is asked of us, do we really pray & fast fervently? If so both the Church and our government may look quite differently. I'm guilty of lacking fervent prayer in these areas.

Valerie,

Do you really think the early Anabaptists did not engage in fervent prayer?

Are you aware of how hopelessly corrupt the state church was in the 1500s?

Of course. Like God's elect the Jews, they were in so need of a Savior. He did not handle the Jews though, like the reformers handled the existing Church. It was all just such a terrible time in Church history. But there was and still are devout and Holy Christians in this Church worldwide - reach across the aisles and love them, Christ died for them. He died for us all.

[Valerie]

From all I have read about Anabaptists, I would say there was fervent prayer among many- all no but many and they were quietly going about rebaptizing and not baptizing their infants/children. I don't remember reading about uprisings being the norm for the Anabaptists. Also while Catholicism may have been the predominate church- it wasn't the only church or THE church. It didn't really start until Constantine so you had the church but no defining name or whatever you want to call it until then.
I'm not sure the government of any country would be different with fervent prayer. Governments are run by nonbelievers and I'm not saying we should not pray for those in gov't but would prayer change the direction? I'm not sure- I do believe as it says in Daniel- God changes the times and seasons, he sets up and removes kings- so ultimately God has a purpose for the different gov'ts and we need to pray and be looking up- not around.

The Catholic Church was called Catholic before Constantine, if you read the early Church writers theologians & fathers of the faith. It seems it's a common misunderstanding in many Protestant denominations to think it started with Constantine.

Jesus the Christ said "I will build My Church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her"

And JM named some of the loud up risers that I had read about in my history book "Mennonites in Europe" that took you through the beginning of the reformation and all over the area Anabaptists were denouncing their first baptism as if it didn't count. Truly it seems the Church in that era needed correction. Prior to the New Testament Church, God always sent actual Prophets to speak for Him, through them He would bring corrective words. From reading my book about all this, this uprising whether the loud ones that showed up to speak over priests, or the quiet, as sincere as they were in taking their interpretations I did not end up seeing they were "sent by God" as prophets like He had always done.
We do know there were prophets in the New Testament Church as we read in Acts & Ephesians but really, no one was writing down what they were saying at the time except a couple short prophecies- at least not until the Book of Revelation. Jesus did bring words of Correction to 5 out of 7 churches in Asia. He brought both words about what they were doing right, and where they needed correction.

In 50 years since repenting to ask Christ into my life and get baptized (in the Pacific Ocean) I have been falsely taught some interpretations - when seeking Anabaptism starting 15 years or so ago, I have also had to share with other people of faith where they misunderstand doctrines Anabaptists believe- then we've had to defend Spiritual gifts to cessation believers who don't believe in Spiritual gifts as Paul taught in Corinthians. It behooves us to not assume others are wrong and there's only one correct denomination - indeed even among the Early Anabaptists from my history book they were certainly not all in agreement - it surprised me I guess. I mean I know NOW there's countless divisions but I wrong assumed they were all on the same page at the start.

[Soloist]

The Catholic Church was called Catholic before Constantine, if you read the early Church writers theologians & fathers of the faith. It seems it's a common misunderstanding in many Protestant denominations to think it started with Constantine.

You do know what Catholic means don’t you?

JM named some of the loud up risers that I had read about in my history book "Mennonites in Europe" that took you through the beginning of the reformation and all over the area Anabaptists were denouncing their first baptism as if it didn't count. Truly it seems the Church in that era needed correction. Prior to the New Testament Church, God always sent actual Prophets to speak for Him, through them He would bring corrective words. From reading my book about all this, this uprising whether the loud ones that showed up to speak over priests, or the quiet, as sincere as they were in taking their interpretations I did not end up seeing they were "sent by God" as prophets like He had always done.

Yet they were rejected and killed like the prophets before them.

We do know there were prophets in the New Testament Church as we read in Acts & Ephesians but really, no one was writing down what they were saying at the time except a couple short prophecies- at least not until the Book of Revelation. Jesus did bring words of Correction to 5 out of 7 churches in Asia. He brought both words about what they were doing right, and where they needed correction.

Those churches if they didn’t heed the warning would have their light removed, meaning they would not remain the “church”

The unbiblical notion that laying of hands provides authority tracing to the Apostles also would give authority to the heretical churches through out the ages the Catholic Church declared heretical, the same is true for the Anabaptists churches. Effectively this is a doctrinal dispute among the church. Both sides call the other heretical.
If both historical “hand laid upon” groups declare the other is the heretical, which one is right? I’ll side with the group that didn’t kill the other side as that fits with prophecy and how the Jews treated their prophets.

As I have shown the apostolic descended argument breaks down, the argument then is that the Anabaptists diverted from established doctrine from the beginning. As Max has basically said, infant baptism is optional therefore, the Catholic Church exceeded their authority to kill those who rejected it on doctrinal principles and what Jesus taught and they are not heretics.
Thus due to rejection of the teachings of Jesus, the Catholic Church is heretical and had their lamp stand removed.
They can repent and return to the truth of course.

[RZehr]

Jesus said he would build his church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

Hell has indeed prevailed over the Catholic Church. Look at their history.

Therefor, either Jesus was wrong; or, the Catholic Church ceased being the church of Christ. I think Jesus was not wrong. Not every church that says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven. By their fruits we know them.

Can a church repent? Yes.