Cooperative Missions Run by Different Denominations

[ken_sylvania]

Re: The "Pennsylvania Dutch" Bible: I have known Hank Hershberger for many years. He would not change the meaning of any Scripture, regardless of the fact that he grew up Amish. The men who worked on this translation with him were all Amish.

Can you explain this quote, then?

Misunderstanding God’s Word

“[The Amish] do not understand the German Scripture very well, and this can result in misinterpretation of the Scripture,” Hank says, referencing the Beatitudes as an example.

Martin Luther used a certain word in his translation to mean “blessed;” the same word is also used in Pennsylvania Dutch, but in this language it means “saved.” The confusion of this one word has resulted in a “works salvation” theology among the Amish, Hank explains.

“Instead of ‘blessed are the people,’ it means ‘saved are the people’ who do so-and-so, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.”
If more Amish churches were to use the Pennsylvania Dutch translation, Hank believes it would correct mistakes in doctrinal teaching. While Amish church leaders remain suspicious of the Pennsylvania Dutch Bible, some Amish families are using it for their home devotions.

What denomination, type of church etc is Mr Hershberger in now?

I find anyone who claims the Amish misunderstand the Beatitudes to be a bit suspect against the background of widespread American Christianity that completely misunderstands the Beatitudes starting with Jesus’ rather clear directions to us not to do violence to others.

I also suspect most Amish wouldn’t agree with Mr Hershberger’s claim that the Amish have wrong doctrine about justification and salvation. (Perhaps some New Orders in the past would have, and of course any CA group that embraces Lutheran doctrines about salvation.)

I do not know German, either one of the German dialects or languages involved, so I do not have an opinion regarding the meaning of the words concerned.

But I do know Hank, and he is not only a native speaker of PA German, but is also a trained linguist. He & his wife Ruth did a translation for an aboriginal group, and worked on his own language in his spare time, on furloughs. Then after they finished the work in Australia, he worked full-time on the translation work here. But I know neither High German nor PA German well enough to make any response on what he is quoted here as having said.

I don't know who is quoted as saying that "Amish church leaders remain suspicious of the Pennsylvania Dutch Bible", but as I know from talking with him, he worked with a translation committee made up of Amishmen, so I doubt if that is true of all, or even most, Amish Bishops and ministers. It is also true, however, that because of the nature of my business, I have very little contact with Dan church people, or Tobe Amish, and certainly not Swartzentrubers. (In the past, when I went to nearly every Mt Hope machinery auction, I often talked with Swartzentrubers, and would sometimes run into one of them later somewhere else, & they are always friendly. More like Okies that anyone else I ever meet in this area.)

Hank is quoted in this press release. Whether the writer quoted him accurately or not I wouldn't know.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/amish-need-scripture/
I am seriously skeptical of any claim that confusion about the Beatitudes is the cause of any kind of a "works religion" among the Amish. I also have deep reservations about any kind of "Christianity" that thinks the Beatitudes are some kind of optional exercise "for additional credit."

[Judas Maccabeus]

Does anyone have access to a Froschauer Bible ? I would be curious what word was used there.

[Josh]

Does anyone have access to a Froschauer Bible ? I would be curious what word was used there.

From an online source (1531), Matthew 5:3:



"Saelig sind die da geystlich arm sind, dañ das him-melreych ist (ih)r."

The Lutherbibel (1545) would say:

"Selig sind, die da geistlich arm sind; denn das Himmelreich ist ihr."

These appear to be semantically identical.

[Neto]

Can you explain this quote, then?



What denomination, type of church etc is Mr Hershberger in now?

I find anyone who claims the Amish misunderstand the Beatitudes to be a bit suspect against the background of widespread American Christianity that completely misunderstands the Beatitudes starting with Jesus’ rather clear directions to us not to do violence to others.

I also suspect most Amish wouldn’t agree with Mr Hershberger’s claim that the Amish have wrong doctrine about justification and salvation. (Perhaps some New Orders in the past would have, and of course any CA group that embraces Lutheran doctrines about salvation.)

I do not know German, either one of the German dialects or languages involved, so I do not have an opinion regarding the meaning of the words concerned.

But I do know Hank, and he is not only a native speaker of PA German, but is also a trained linguist. He & his wife Ruth did a translation for an aboriginal group, and worked on his own language in his spare time, on furloughs. Then after they finished the work in Australia, he worked full-time on the translation work here. But I know neither High German nor PA German well enough to make any response on what he is quoted here as having said.

I don't know who is quoted as saying that "Amish church leaders remain suspicious of the Pennsylvania Dutch Bible", but as I know from talking with him, he worked with a translation committee made up of Amishmen, so I doubt if that is true of all, or even most, Amish Bishops and ministers. It is also true, however, that because of the nature of my business, I have very little contact with Dan church people, or Tobe Amish, and certainly not Swartzentrubers. (In the past, when I went to nearly every Mt Hope machinery auction, I often talked with Swartzentrubers, and would sometimes run into one of them later somewhere else, & they are always friendly. More like Okies that anyone else I ever meet in this area.)

Hank is quoted in this press release. Whether the writer quoted him accurately or not I wouldn't know.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/amish-need-scripture/
I am seriously skeptical of any claim that confusion about the Beatitudes is the cause of any kind of a "works religion" among the Amish. I also have deep reservations about any kind of "Christianity" that thinks the Beatitudes are some kind of optional exercise "for additional credit."

From what I have seen here (I have no other sources), Hank never said obedience to the injunctions of Jesus in that passage are "optional". The person who quoted him MAY have put words in his mouth - that happens, as I illustrated. And it is not just the secular media who does this sort of dishonest journalism. That's why I included the personal story of WBT's on false reporting "on my behalf". But let's not put words in Hank's mouth here, either.

I'm not saying that obedience to these commands (or any others in Scripture) are "optional", or "not essential". But it is an affront to both the Scripture AND God's grace through Jesus Christ, to imply that salvation is to be attributed to our personal obedience. Instead, the Scripture teaches that the one who believes WILL obey. It is not "an additional requirement" - it is a natural and automatic result of true belief. The question here is not whether Hank, or anyone else thinks that obedience is or is not a Christian response to God's grace, the question is "Do some Amish (or any of us, for that matter) think that we somehow EARN salvation, or DESERVE the continuance of it?" In Jesus' own words, His response to those who think they are earning their status as children of God is clear: "I never knew you."

Maybe I missed the link to the article earlier in this discussion, but thanks for including that. I just now read it. Whether I ever saw it before I cannot say, since it is from nearly 10 years ago. I do not think I've ever heard of Mission Network News before, but I DO forget a lot. I looked at their main page, and it is not an agency of WBT, and the author/editor of the piece does not provide any source document information. So it's already second-hand. The section title "Going Amish" is in itself not accurate. Hank grew up Amish, but neither he nor his wife "went Amish" in order to do this translation project. He DOES include himself in the statement as quoted in this article, where he is reported as having said “We do not understand High German very well,” Hank explains. “Our language is not that close to High German.”

An older man I knew (he passed away many years ago) told a story about the misunderstandings that can take place across these linguistic barriers. He also grew up Amish, and related a story about a sermon his own brother, an Amish minister, gave. He was talking about Abram, and how he left Ur of the Chaldees, but he confused "Ur" with the PA German for 'clock', and went on to talk about how Abram came from an advanced cultural center (this part is true) where they had a huge clock.

Another story. The other employees at farm equipment manufacturing plant where I worked after resigning from WBT were all Amish except for myself, and two "English" guys. This was during the period of 2004 - early 2007, when the puppy business was really taking off in this community. The men were talking about something that had come up in the Amish church about giving money that had come from raising puppies.

Deut. 23:18 (KJV)

Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Some ministers were saying that the proceeds from puppy sales could not be given to the church, because it is "Hundt Gelt". This is not a linguistic misunderstanding, but just a lack of understanding the symbolism used by Moses (ultimately, possibly the very words of God Himself) in this passage.

Luther (1545)

18 Du sollst keinen Hurenlohn noch Hundgeld in das Haus Gottes, deines HERRN, bringen aus irgend einem Gelübde; denn das ist dem HERRN, deinem Gott, beides ein Greuel.

Pennsylvania Deitsch

18 Diah sellet's huahra-lohn-geld funn en manskal adda veibsmensh huah nett in's haus fumm Hah eiyah Gott bringa, even fa en fashprechnis-opfah. Da Hah hast si awl zvay.

NET:

You must never bring the pay of a female prostitute or the wage of a male prostitute into the temple of the LORD your God in fulfillment of any vow, for both of these are abhorrent to the LORD your God.

Those of you who know both High German & Deitsch can report which best conveys the actual meaning. (I cannot say how the Deitsch translates it in comparison to the meaning behind the slur against male prostitution.)

[Josh]

If WBT’s press releases and office workers and then journalists who report on that are so unreliable that they will misquote one of their translators…

… should we trust their Bible translations?

It seems very unlikely that someone at MNN just completely made all that up although I suppose it’s possible. But at some point, we can’t just doubt a source because we don’t like what it says.

[barnhart]

Neto, your experience of being labeled a legalist by WBT reminds me of my great grandmother and her discomfort with modern ideas like "assurance of salvation" which sounded too prideful and to full of modern self determination to be Christ like. She was wise, well read, knew the Bible forward and backward and demonstrated a deep prayer and devotional life, yet some of her descendants considered her faith lacking because this. On the day of her death she sensed some internal organ failure so she went to the bed, lay down and asked her children to gather around. Then she instructed them to pray for Jesus to come and take her home. I don't see how one could be more sure or confident than that.

[silentreader]

I do not know German, either one of the German dialects or languages involved, so I do not have an opinion regarding the meaning of the words concerned.

But I do know Hank, and he is not only a native speaker of PA German, but is also a trained linguist. He & his wife Ruth did a translation for an aboriginal group, and worked on his own language in his spare time, on furloughs. Then after they finished the work in Australia, he worked full-time on the translation work here. But I know neither High German nor PA German well enough to make any response on what he is quoted here as having said.

I don't know who is quoted as saying that "Amish church leaders remain suspicious of the Pennsylvania Dutch Bible", but as I know from talking with him, he worked with a translation committee made up of Amishmen, so I doubt if that is true of all, or even most, Amish Bishops and ministers. It is also true, however, that because of the nature of my business, I have very little contact with Dan church people, or Tobe Amish, and certainly not Swartzentrubers. (In the past, when I went to nearly every Mt Hope machinery auction, I often talked with Swartzentrubers, and would sometimes run into one of them later somewhere else, & they are always friendly. More like Okies that anyone else I ever meet in this area.)

Hank is quoted in this press release. Whether the writer quoted him accurately or not I wouldn't know.
https://www.mnnonline.org/news/amish-need-scripture/
I am seriously skeptical of any claim that confusion about the Beatitudes is the cause of any kind of a "works religion" among the Amish. I also have deep reservations about any kind of "Christianity" that thinks the Beatitudes are some kind of optional exercise "for additional credit."

From what I have seen here (I have no other sources), Hank never said obedience to the injunctions of Jesus in that passage are "optional". The person who quoted him MAY have put words in his mouth - that happens, as I illustrated. And it is not just the secular media who does this sort of dishonest journalism. That's why I included the personal story of WBT's on false reporting "on my behalf". But let's not put words in Hank's mouth here, either.

I'm not saying that obedience to these commands (or any others in Scripture) are "optional", or "not essential". But it is an affront to both the Scripture AND God's grace through Jesus Christ, to imply that salvation is to be attributed to our personal obedience. Instead, the Scripture teaches that the one who believes WILL obey. It is not "an additional requirement" - it is a natural and automatic result of true belief. The question here is not whether Hank, or anyone else thinks that obedience is or is not a Christian response to God's grace, the question is "Do some Amish (or any of us, for that matter) think that we somehow EARN salvation, or DESERVE the continuance of it?" In Jesus' own words, His response to those who think they are earning their status as children of God is clear: "I never knew you."

Maybe I missed the link to the article earlier in this discussion, but thanks for including that. I just now read it. Whether I ever saw it before I cannot say, since it is from nearly 10 years ago. I do not think I've ever heard of Mission Network News before, but I DO forget a lot. I looked at their main page, and it is not an agency of WBT, and the author/editor of the piece does not provide any source document information. So it's already second-hand. The section title "Going Amish" is in itself not accurate. Hank grew up Amish, but neither he nor his wife "went Amish" in order to do this translation project. He DOES include himself in the statement as quoted in this article, where he is reported as having said “We do not understand High German very well,” Hank explains. “Our language is not that close to High German.”

An older man I knew (he passed away many years ago) told a story about the misunderstandings that can take place across these linguistic barriers. He also grew up Amish, and related a story about a sermon his own brother, an Amish minister, gave. He was talking about Abram, and how he left Ur of the Chaldees, but he confused "Ur" with the PA German for 'clock', and went on to talk about how Abram came from an advanced cultural center (this part is true) where they had a huge clock.

Another story. The other employees at farm equipment manufacturing plant where I worked after resigning from WBT were all Amish except for myself, and two "English" guys. This was during the period of 2004 - early 2007, when the puppy business was really taking off in this community. The men were talking about something that had come up in the Amish church about giving money that had come from raising puppies.

Deut. 23:18 (KJV)

Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Some ministers were saying that the proceeds from puppy sales could not be given to the church, because it is "Hundt Gelt". This is not a linguistic misunderstanding, but just a lack of understanding the symbolism used by Moses (ultimately, possibly the very words of God Himself) in this passage.

Luther (1545)

18 Du sollst keinen Hurenlohn noch Hundgeld in das Haus Gottes, deines HERRN, bringen aus irgend einem Gelübde; denn das ist dem HERRN, deinem Gott, beides ein Greuel.

Pennsylvania Deitsch

18 Diah sellet's huahra-lohn-geld funn en manskal adda veibsmensh huah nett in's haus fumm Hah eiyah Gott bringa, even fa en fashprechnis-opfah. Da Hah hast si awl zvay.

NET:

You must never bring the pay of a female prostitute or the wage of a male prostitute into the temple of the LORD your God in fulfillment of any vow, for both of these are abhorrent to the LORD your God.

Those of you who know both High German & Deitsch can report which best conveys the actual meaning. (I cannot say how the Deitsch translates it in comparison to the meaning behind the slur against male prostitution.)

The PD is very much clearer.

[Josh]

Neto, your experience of being labeled a legalist by WBT reminds me of my great grandmother and her discomfort with modern ideas like "assurance of salvation" which sounded too prideful and to full of modern self determination to be Christ like. She was wise, well read, knew the Bible forward and backward and demonstrated a deep prayer and devotional life, yet some of her descendants considered her faith lacking because this. On the day of her death she sensed some internal organ failure so she went to the bed, lay down and asked her children to gather around. Then she instructed them to pray for Jesus to come and take her home. I don't see how one could be more sure or confident than that.

Yet a large swathe of conservative Anabaptists and evangelicals at large tell themselves none of the Amish are saved and that they need to be evangelised and “saved” from … believing they should do what Jesus said to do.

I wish we would have more honesty about just how disordered this is.

[silentreader]

Neto, your experience of being labeled a legalist by WBT reminds me of my great grandmother and her discomfort with modern ideas like "assurance of salvation" which sounded too prideful and to full of modern self determination to be Christ like. She was wise, well read, knew the Bible forward and backward and demonstrated a deep prayer and devotional life, yet some of her descendants considered her faith lacking because this. On the day of her death she sensed some internal organ failure so she went to the bed, lay down and asked her children to gather around. Then she instructed them to pray for Jesus to come and take her home. I don't see how one could be more sure or confident than that.

Yet a large swathe of conservative Anabaptists and evangelicals at large tell themselves none of the Amish are saved and that they need to be evangelised and “saved” from … believing they should do what Jesus said to do.

I wish we would have more honesty about just how disordered this is.

I really don't want to get entangled in this discussion but I have a tendency to believe that the OO concern about pride in this matter is not unfounded.

[silentreader]

Neto, your experience of being labeled a legalist by WBT reminds me of my great grandmother and her discomfort with modern ideas like "assurance of salvation" which sounded too prideful and to full of modern self determination to be Christ like. She was wise, well read, knew the Bible forward and backward and demonstrated a deep prayer and devotional life, yet some of her descendants considered her faith lacking because this. On the day of her death she sensed some internal organ failure so she went to the bed, lay down and asked her children to gather around. Then she instructed them to pray for Jesus to come and take her home. I don't see how one could be more sure or confident than that.

Yet a large swathe of conservative Anabaptists and evangelicals at large tell themselves none of the Amish are saved and that they need to be evangelised and “saved” from … believing they should do what Jesus said to do.

I wish we would have more honesty about just how disordered this is.

I really don't want to get entangled in this discussion but I have a tendency to believe that the OO concern about pride in this matter is not unfounded.

I am teaching Romans right now. this passage came to mind. It may or may not be relevant. Romans 3:27-31 ESV

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.