Cooperative Missions Run by Different Denominations

[ohio jones]

The page I pasted a picture of isn't from a Lutherbibel but is from the earlier Froescher Bible (which I don't really know anything about).

One interesting thing about it is that it has all kinds of notes and commentary from Zwingli, which you can see in the picture in the smaller letters.

The Froschauer Bible is Luther's New Testament and the parts of the Old he had completed by that time, the Prophets as translated by Haetzer and Denck, with any remaining portions filled in by Zwingli's team. The parts that had been originally published in German were Swissified a bit to adapt the spelling and grammar to local usage. By doing so, Froschauer was able to print a complete Bible several years before Luther did, thereby capturing both market share and loyalty.

[Josh]

The parts that had been originally published in German were Swissified a bit to adapt the spelling and grammar to local usage. By doing so, Froschauer was able to print a complete Bible several years before Luther did, thereby capturing both market share and loyalty.

Ironically, the main adherents to the Lutherbibel now are the descendants of the Swiss Brethren.

[Neto]

The parts that had been originally published in German were Swissified a bit to adapt the spelling and grammar to local usage. By doing so, Froschauer was able to print a complete Bible several years before Luther did, thereby capturing both market share and loyalty.

Ironically, the main adherents to the Lutherbibel now are the descendants of the Swiss Brethren.

This was also the one used by the Russian Mennonites, and probably still is, for any congregations that still uses German, like the colonies in Mexico and in South America (Bolivia, Peru, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, & Paraguay).

[Judas Maccabeus]

Neto, your experience of being labeled a legalist by WBT reminds me of my great grandmother and her discomfort with modern ideas like "assurance of salvation" which sounded too prideful and to full of modern self determination to be Christ like. She was wise, well read, knew the Bible forward and backward and demonstrated a deep prayer and devotional life, yet some of her descendants considered her faith lacking because this. On the day of her death she sensed some internal organ failure so she went to the bed, lay down and asked her children to gather around. Then she instructed them to pray for Jesus to come and take her home. I don't see how one could be more sure or confident than that.

Yet a large swathe of conservative Anabaptists and evangelicals at large tell themselves none of the Amish are saved and that they need to be evangelised and “saved” from … believing they should do what Jesus said to do.

I wish we would have more honesty about just how disordered this is.

Actually, I really do not hear that voiced in my circles. In my interaction with Old Order Amish, virtually all of them are in my estimation, regenerate.

But I do not insist they use our terminology.

[Judas Maccabeus]

From an online source (1531), Matthew 5:3:



"Saelig sind die da geystlich arm sind, dañ das him-melreych ist (ih)r."

The Lutherbibel (1545) would say:

"Selig sind, die da geistlich arm sind; denn das Himmelreich ist ihr."

These appear to be semantically identical.

Wherever did you find this? I really can’t read the Fraktur here, without considerable effort, and my German is abysmal. This blows up my “working theory “ of how the “Old Order” views came to be.

Can you expound a bit further for the benefit of us poor mortals who cannot understand German or Dutch and who are curious about which "Old Order" views you are referring to?

I was wondering whether the "Old Order" way of expressing salvation had to do with their early use of the Froschauer Bible. My hypothesis is incorrect. The verses are identical.

[Josh]

Actually, I really do not hear that voiced in my circles. In my interaction with Old Order Amish, virtually all of them are in my estimation, regenerate.

But I do not insist they use our terminology.

I haven't really noticed too much of that in your denomination's circles. It's more of an Amish-Mennonite / Beachy sort of thing, pretty rife there. They will just flatly say "The Amish believe in works for salvation" and "They aren't born again".

[barnhart]

I was wondering whether the "Old Order" way of expressing salvation had to do with their early use of the Froschauer Bible. My hypothesis is incorrect. The verses are identical.

In my tradition (Swiss Mennonite who did not follow the Older schism) there was/is reticence to adopt ideas like "assurance of salvation" without some qualifications and explanation. But this got me thinking, I don't know which German Bible they used. It would have been before 1860 because no German survived the Civil war and I suspect earlier, maybe a 100 years or more, because they began services in English not long after arrival.

[Neto]

I was wondering whether the "Old Order" way of expressing salvation had to do with their early use of the Froschauer Bible. My hypothesis is incorrect. The verses are identical.

In my tradition (Swiss Mennonite who did not follow the Older schism) there was/is reticence to adopt ideas like "assurance of salvation" without some qualifications and explanation. But this got me thinking, I don't know which German Bible they used. It would have been before 1860 because no German survived the Civil war and I suspect earlier, maybe a 100 years or more, because they began services in English not long after arrival.

I already mentioned one idea I have in regards to the hesitancy to openly claim "assurance of salvation" - the possibility that assurance is felt inwardly, but it seems unnecessarily prideful to talk about it. I may have also mentioned that there is a sense in which saying so focuses on self, not on the One who has granted such a "secure salvation". This latter attitude can be expressed in praise to God, both personally and also corporately, as a fellowship.

There may also be a connection to the "once saved always saved" attitude, w/o the consciousness or 'fear' of allowing the trials of life to lead one to spiritual coldness, and if not restored, then finally to complete rejection of one's reconciliation to, and the resulting relationship with, God. (Incidentally, the one person I know personally, over a period of a couple decades, who later rejected their faith - this person always noticeably struggled with personal pride - or maybe I should say "didn't struggle with pride, but just leaned into it". Now, as an openly atheistic person, I see this pride come out full force in his life, so maybe he actually WAS restraining it during his years living as a Christian.)

[Bootstrap]

I was wondering whether the "Old Order" way of expressing salvation had to do with their early use of the Froschauer Bible. My hypothesis is incorrect. The verses are identical.

There's not much difference between the Froschauer Bible and the Luther Bible. Not just in this verse.

[Bootstrap]

Was that translated by WBT or Wycliffe Associates? I am sure you know the difference.

WBT. You can see it here:

https://www.scriptureearth.org/data/pdc ... dc-web.pdf