Bible Translation

[Neto]

Started this topic to have one place to mention translation challenges.

I think I've mentioned this before, but not in a "dedicated thread" - the question of "What is a first-born son?

I was confronted with this question when doing the consultant check process on the book of Exodus. I had translated it as something like "the first male child born" (I would have to look back to be exact on this), and the translation consultant asked me if I was really sure that was correct. She said that she wasn't sure herself, so I went looking. The main Brazil branch library was located on our mission center at that time (there were up to 4 WBT mission centers in Brazil at one time, but at that time, only 2), or I would not have found the answer. The only commentary that dealt with this question was a very old one, printed in the 1700's (and not a later reprint). The author (John Gill) referenced the Targum Jonathan for the answer. This Jewish commentary was dealing with a somewhat different question, so the answer was not quite as clearly presented as a wikipeadia reference that I found this morning (when I searched on the key words "pidyon haben ceremony" - the first-born redemption ceremony).

In case this is of interest to anyone - you DO need to know this if you are doing Old Testament translation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidyon_haben

But I think that there is something else here that can give us a deeper understanding of God, because it is the first-born son of a woman, a child that "opens the womb" - not the first-born son of a man. [It IS possible to get the same answer by reading the Law, but you have to pull different parts of it together, from different passages. For instance, not all Scripture texts mention the part about the "opening of the womb".] I think that this shows God's nature in a way that includes the "heart of a mother". It also shows his special focus on the value of motherhood, and of women in general. None of this ("application" or inference) is referenced directly in Scripture. It is just my "take" on what other meaning is entangled in the Law, and thus also the importance of studying it. Answering (at least partly, as though in a polished brass mirror) the question: "Where was God's heart when he gave the Law?"

[MaxPC]

This is a very refreshing and important topic, Neto. Thank you.

Started this topic to have one place to mention translation challenges.

I think I've mentioned this before, but not in a "dedicated thread" - the question of "What is a first-born son?

I was confronted with this question when doing the consultant check process on the book of Exodus. I had translated it as something like "the first male child born" (I would have to look back to be exact on this), and the translation consultant asked me if I was really sure that was correct. She said that she wasn't sure herself, so I went looking. The main Brazil branch library was located on our mission center at that time (there were up to 4 WBT mission centers in Brazil at one time, but at that time, only 2), or I would not have found the answer. The only commentary that dealt with this question was a very old one, printed in the 1700's (and not a later reprint). The author (John Gill) referenced the Targum Jonathan for the answer. This Jewish commentary was dealing with a somewhat different question, so the answer was not quite as clearly presented as a wikipeadia reference that I found this morning (when I searched on the key words "pidyon haben ceremony" - the first-born redemption ceremony).

In case this is of interest to anyone - you DO need to know this if you are doing Old Testament translation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidyon_haben

But I think that there is something else here that can give us a deeper understanding of God, because it is the first-born son of a woman, a child that "opens the womb" - not the first-born son of a man. [It IS possible to get the same answer by reading the Law, but you have to pull different parts of it together, from different passages. For instance, not all Scripture texts mention the part about the "opening of the womb".] I think that this shows God's nature in a way that includes the "heart of a mother". It also shows his special focus on the value of motherhood, and of women in general. None of this ("application" or inference) is referenced directly in Scripture. It is just my "take" on what other meaning is entangled in the Law, and thus also the importance of studying it. Answering (at least partly, as though in a polished brass mirror) the question: "Where was God's heart when he gave the Law?"

I most certainly agree with your assessment and the need to examine translation within the context of the Law as given by God. It is all of a piece. The opening of the womb has some very real anatomical and genetic impacts as well; too many to list here but a colleague of mine noted some of them years ago. God who created us worked within these. Now where did I put my notes on that?

[Neto]

This is a very refreshing and important topic, Neto. Thank you.

Started this topic to have one place to mention translation challenges.

I think I've mentioned this before, but not in a "dedicated thread" - the question of "What is a first-born son?

I was confronted with this question when doing the consultant check process on the book of Exodus. I had translated it as something like "the first male child born" (I would have to look back to be exact on this), and the translation consultant asked me if I was really sure that was correct. She said that she wasn't sure herself, so I went looking. The main Brazil branch library was located on our mission center at that time (there were up to 4 WBT mission centers in Brazil at one time, but at that time, only 2), or I would not have found the answer. The only commentary that dealt with this question was a very old one, printed in the 1700's (and not a later reprint). The author (John Gill) referenced the Targum Jonathan for the answer. This Jewish commentary was dealing with a somewhat different question, so the answer was not quite as clearly presented as a wikipeadia reference that I found this morning (when I searched on the key words "pidyon haben ceremony" - the first-born redemption ceremony).

In case this is of interest to anyone - you DO need to know this if you are doing Old Testament translation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidyon_haben

But I think that there is something else here that can give us a deeper understanding of God, because it is the first-born son of a woman, a child that "opens the womb" - not the first-born son of a man. [It IS possible to get the same answer by reading the Law, but you have to pull different parts of it together, from different passages. For instance, not all Scripture texts mention the part about the "opening of the womb".] I think that this shows God's nature in a way that includes the "heart of a mother". It also shows his special focus on the value of motherhood, and of women in general. None of this ("application" or inference) is referenced directly in Scripture. It is just my "take" on what other meaning is entangled in the Law, and thus also the importance of studying it. Answering (at least partly, as though in a polished brass mirror) the question: "Where was God's heart when he gave the Law?"

Throw them right in here, or start a separate topic if you prefer. (I do not have a preference. Most threads go way off topic anyway, and this would not be a case of that.)

I will only post a new sub-topic from time to time, and anyone is welcome to post one of their own here as well.

I most certainly agree with your assessment and the need to examine translation within the context of the Law as given by God. It is all of a piece. The opening of the womb has some very real anatomical and genetic impacts as well; too many to list here but a colleague of mine noted some of them years ago. God who created us worked within these. Now where did I put my notes on that?

[MaxPC]

When the weather warms a bit more I will have to search for those notes in the storage shed.

[RZehr]

But I think that there is something else here that can give us a deeper understanding of God, because it is the first-born son of a woman, a child that "opens the womb" - not the first-born son of a man. [It IS possible to get the same answer by reading the Law, but you have to pull different parts of it together, from different passages. For instance, not all Scripture texts mention the part about the "opening of the womb".] I think that this shows God's nature in a way that includes the "heart of a mother". It also shows his special focus on the value of motherhood, and of women in general. None of this ("application" or inference) is referenced directly in Scripture. It is just my "take" on what other meaning is entangled in the Law, and thus also the importance of studying it. Answering (at least partly, as though in a polished brass mirror) the question: "Where was God's heart when he gave the Law?"

Very interesting.