Coming to a city near me

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Valerie wrote:Wonder- what would be a way to expose this as such- it has the appearance of good, really- strong Christians which many see as people of God- is it simply just misinerpretation of Scriptures? You guys seem to know more about it than us, but- some of this direction we were witnessing is why we got out altogether- and we received strong warnings 'not' to get out- to wake up (to embrace it) before it's too late. Of course, that warning only made me (us) more sure of wanting to get out.

But with these rallies going nationwide in the name of Christ, and the "Jesus Culture" involved, if anyone says negative things about it- you will be accused of being against Christ Himself!
I would risk being accused of being against Jesus in order to oppose that which is so obviously unscriptural. Didn't Jesus say that we will be persecuted even as He was? I followed a few of your links and read enough to know that they contradict much of what I have learned over the years.
Thank you Hats Off, for taking the time to look into this- yes He did say that, these are such difficult days in the faith in some ways- as we approach the time before Jesus returns- we will be hit with a lot of things to discern & sift through. In the name of Christ, in the name of Christianity.
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:Wonder- what would be a way to expose this as such- it has the appearance of good, really- strong Christians which many see as people of God- is it simply just misinerpretation of Scriptures? You guys seem to know more about it than us, but- some of this direction we were witnessing is why we got out altogether- and we received strong warnings 'not' to get out- to wake up (to embrace it) before it's too late. Of course, that warning only made me (us) more sure of wanting to get out.

But with these rallies going nationwide in the name of Christ, and the "Jesus Culture" involved, if anyone says negative things about it- you will be accused of being against Christ Himself!
The problem is that the Jesus of groups like this worship is not the Jesus that many of us here have as Lord. It is a Jesus that wants his followers to gain civil power, it is a Jesus that wants his law imposed upon all by government rather than received by his followers willingly. It is a Jesus that calls the his church to assume power over people, not to be a servant to people.

In other words, a "fake" Jesus.

J.M.
Could it be that they are using Romans 13 to convey it as "God's ministers'? That is what I am wondering, if it has to do more with interpretation- there are differences of interpretations about these things- my main concern was the NAR with names in it, and connections, that we were really uncomfortable with- I mean to want Godly laws, is Scriptural- just not sure how that is accomplished.
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Josh
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Josh »

What, exactly, would "scriptural" laws look like?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:Wonder- what would be a way to expose this as such- it has the appearance of good, really- strong Christians which many see as people of God- is it simply just misinerpretation of Scriptures? You guys seem to know more about it than us, but- some of this direction we were witnessing is why we got out altogether- and we received strong warnings 'not' to get out- to wake up (to embrace it) before it's too late. Of course, that warning only made me (us) more sure of wanting to get out.

But with these rallies going nationwide in the name of Christ, and the "Jesus Culture" involved, if anyone says negative things about it- you will be accused of being against Christ Himself!
The problem is that the Jesus of groups like this worship is not the Jesus that many of us here have as Lord. It is a Jesus that wants his followers to gain civil power, it is a Jesus that wants his law imposed upon all by government rather than received by his followers willingly. It is a Jesus that calls the his church to assume power over people, not to be a servant to people.

In other words, a "fake" Jesus.

J.M.
Could it be that they are using Romans 13 to convey it as "God's ministers'? That is what I am wondering, if it has to do more with interpretation- there are differences of interpretations about these things- my main concern was the NAR with names in it, and connections, that we were really uncomfortable with- I mean to want Godly laws, is Scriptural- just not sure how that is accomplished.
That would be WAY out of context, as Paul would be making reference to the Roman rulers of his day. That would be a stretch.

"Godly" law simply would not work. It would simply put a veneer on rotten wood. We DO have the ability to change the nature of the wood from the inside out, and not just polish the "coating." That is what us in churches that engage in outreach are about. Meet men with the message of Jesus, disciple them in the way of the Lord, baptize them into the church, and send them out to reach others. Society cannot be changed by changing the rules. Men can, however be changed, with the ultimate goal of impacting society. Remember the parable of the Leaven (Luke 13:21).

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
The problem is that the Jesus of groups like this worship is not the Jesus that many of us here have as Lord. It is a Jesus that wants his followers to gain civil power, it is a Jesus that wants his law imposed upon all by government rather than received by his followers willingly. It is a Jesus that calls the his church to assume power over people, not to be a servant to people.

In other words, a "fake" Jesus.

J.M.
Could it be that they are using Romans 13 to convey it as "God's ministers'? That is what I am wondering, if it has to do more with interpretation- there are differences of interpretations about these things- my main concern was the NAR with names in it, and connections, that we were really uncomfortable with- I mean to want Godly laws, is Scriptural- just not sure how that is accomplished.
That would be WAY out of context, as Paul would be making reference to the Roman rulers of his day. That would be a stretch.

"Godly" law simply would not work. It would simply put a veneer on rotten wood. We DO have the ability to change the nature of the wood from the inside out, and not just polish the "coating." That is what us in churches that engage in outreach are about. Meet men with the message of Jesus, disciple them in the way of the Lord, baptize them into the church, and send them out to reach others. Society cannot be changed by changing the rules. Men can, however be changed, with the ultimate goal of impacting society. Remember the parable of the Leaven (Luke 13:21).

J.M.
I agree with you for the most effective way to change a soul, one on one, evangelizing, discipleship etc- but I think that the application was not just for that period of time, I really don't believe that God wants ungodly rulers to make ungodly laws and to legalize what He calls sin. That is not at the heart of the God I know- now making things legal or illegal does not make one a Christian- but Jesus said whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble -

Matthew 18:6-7King James Version (KJV)

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I am not suggesting that we should be all about expecting laws to make Christians- but I also do not agree with legalizing sin such as abortion and homosexuality-for example. These 'little ones' Jesus is speaking about not stumbling, may not be growing up in Christian environments and they are led to believe this sin is okay- they may be deep in sin, because it has become legal and therefore it must be alright- just sharing my thoughts on this- because I do feel the Church at large needs to be an influence here- MORE in the way you say, but not exclusively-
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Josh
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Josh »

The Bible is pretty clear that jealousy, covetousness, pride are major sins that will keep us out of the kingdom. Should those be outlawed as well?
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

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Josh wrote:The Bible is pretty clear that jealousy, covetousness, pride are major sins that will keep us out of the kingdom. Should those be outlawed as well?
That seems a silly argument- what, should we do away with laws altogether then?
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Josh
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Josh »

Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:The Bible is pretty clear that jealousy, covetousness, pride are major sins that will keep us out of the kingdom. Should those be outlawed as well?
That seems a silly argument- what, should we do away with laws altogether then?
The New Testament just isn't meant to be law, nor is it meant to be guidelines for forming secular law.

The Old Testament definitely was meant to be law. But it's a law that wouldn't work well for us in America. For example, it calls for the death penalty if you light a campfire on a Saturday. I don't think America should enact such a law.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Could it be that they are using Romans 13 to convey it as "God's ministers'? That is what I am wondering, if it has to do more with interpretation- there are differences of interpretations about these things- my main concern was the NAR with names in it, and connections, that we were really uncomfortable with- I mean to want Godly laws, is Scriptural- just not sure how that is accomplished.
That would be WAY out of context, as Paul would be making reference to the Roman rulers of his day. That would be a stretch.

"Godly" law simply would not work. It would simply put a veneer on rotten wood. We DO have the ability to change the nature of the wood from the inside out, and not just polish the "coating." That is what us in churches that engage in outreach are about. Meet men with the message of Jesus, disciple them in the way of the Lord, baptize them into the church, and send them out to reach others. Society cannot be changed by changing the rules. Men can, however be changed, with the ultimate goal of impacting society. Remember the parable of the Leaven (Luke 13:21).

J.M.
I agree with you for the most effective way to change a soul, one on one, evangelizing, discipleship etc- but I think that the application was not just for that period of time, I really don't believe that God wants ungodly rulers to make ungodly laws and to legalize what He calls sin. That is not at the heart of the God I know- now making things legal or illegal does not make one a Christian- but Jesus said whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble -

Matthew 18:6-7King James Version (KJV)

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I am not suggesting that we should be all about expecting laws to make Christians- but I also do not agree with legalizing sin such as abortion and homosexuality-for example. These 'little ones' Jesus is speaking about not stumbling, may not be growing up in Christian environments and they are led to believe this sin is okay- they may be deep in sin, because it has become legal and therefore it must be alright- just sharing my thoughts on this- because I do feel the Church at large needs to be an influence here- MORE in the way you say, but not exclusively-
We all want good laws. But should we try to achieve this by mixing ourselves with the civil powers, or by praying for them. I will contend the latter may be the most effective. The former clearly does not work, and exposes the church to the influence of the civil authorities.

J.M.
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Valerie
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Re: Coming to a city near me

Post by Valerie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
That would be WAY out of context, as Paul would be making reference to the Roman rulers of his day. That would be a stretch.

"Godly" law simply would not work. It would simply put a veneer on rotten wood. We DO have the ability to change the nature of the wood from the inside out, and not just polish the "coating." That is what us in churches that engage in outreach are about. Meet men with the message of Jesus, disciple them in the way of the Lord, baptize them into the church, and send them out to reach others. Society cannot be changed by changing the rules. Men can, however be changed, with the ultimate goal of impacting society. Remember the parable of the Leaven (Luke 13:21).

J.M.
I agree with you for the most effective way to change a soul, one on one, evangelizing, discipleship etc- but I think that the application was not just for that period of time, I really don't believe that God wants ungodly rulers to make ungodly laws and to legalize what He calls sin. That is not at the heart of the God I know- now making things legal or illegal does not make one a Christian- but Jesus said whoever causes one of these little ones to stumble -

Matthew 18:6-7King James Version (KJV)

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I am not suggesting that we should be all about expecting laws to make Christians- but I also do not agree with legalizing sin such as abortion and homosexuality-for example. These 'little ones' Jesus is speaking about not stumbling, may not be growing up in Christian environments and they are led to believe this sin is okay- they may be deep in sin, because it has become legal and therefore it must be alright- just sharing my thoughts on this- because I do feel the Church at large needs to be an influence here- MORE in the way you say, but not exclusively-
We all want good laws. But should we try to achieve this by mixing ourselves with the civil powers, or by praying for them. I will contend the latter may be the most effective. The former clearly does not work, and exposes the church to the influence of the civil authorities.

J.M.
I might say to this then, are the prayers being heard of those who chose to pray only?
The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man, availeth much- (James 5:16)- I know that by our prayers and faith mingled with our prayers, can move mountains- so affecting the government by prayers alone, could accomplish much. But what do we see? Government getting more evil, making more evil laws, and affecting the morality of our land in general.
Is God listening to the prayers of those who contend to 'only' pray? If so, where is the evidence, if not- why not? Are they not fervent enough? After all the laws of the land, affect all- affect the children- who we care for- being affected.
Some might add faith without works is dead- i suppose i can admire those who contend for the faith and hope to affect the government to affect the laws of the land to align to good and not evil- (as Romans 13 points out the purpose for Gov't) and if everyone involved in government is a non believer, then they will not even know the difference between good and evil.

If, as you suggest, the 'former' does not work- how can you verify that 'praying only' works? Just pondering this-
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