submission and punishment

[Josh]

I’ve had people be very rude to me or say crude things to me in stores. I didn’t start a fight, nor lie in wait to murder them on the way out of the store.

Right. And I’m suggesting, based on the article, that there was possibly an unpleasant interaction between the teens and victim in that store which led to the teens being kicked out and then waiting for the man to come out.

It could be that had the man responded to the teens in the store as you or I would have, with patience and wisdom and kindness and love - they wouldn’t have waited on him outside the store.

Of course this is all conjecture on my part. But it is possible. And it is in response to justme’s question, “what should that man done to avoid being beaten to death?”.

Other news articles say the rowdy trio was engaging in altercations with multiple people.

I guess it is true that the white man who was beaten to death could have avoided being in the, well, black part of town and thus avoided the confrontation. Is that the society we all agree we want to live in?

[Ernie]

thank you ernie, for bringing the conversation back to what i would like to discuss.

Because we have bad ideas about power and authority and tend to blame the victim.

so what can be done to change that? and specifically, to what should we change it?
what would be the correct ideas about power and authority?

I don't have a lot of advice for the kingdoms of this world, other than encouraging them to take up the call to follow Jesus.

And when I think about it, this is about the only advice I have for Anabaptists as well.

[barnhart]

...what would be the correct ideas about power and authority?

This is a valuable question with many applications. There are many models of power and authority to pull from in philosophy, culture, society, economics, religion and government. It easy to find one to suit what you would like to do or condemn in others. I've lived long enough to see my own thinking shift.

Twenty three years ago I started working around a blue collar, white, construction/firefighter community and I still know many of them. Initially they found me anti American or at least not sufficiently patriotic for failing to embrace the War on Terror. They would ask "Why do you hate America?" And I would ask in return why are the options love or hate, why not appreciate and respect. Now some of them are now sympathetic to Jan 6 and want to "tear up the constitution", and I am still asking why not appreciate and respect.

The kingdoms of this world, along with their gods, sacred things and philosophies are transient, be cautious when traveling against them and be doubly cautious when traveling with them.

[steve-in-kville]

When you’re pulled over by the cops on the side of the road, it’s not the right time to resist arrest, particularly when the balance of power is you will always lose. Yet this happens often anyway.

And in America, cops have bodycans and a ton of accountability, and courts and lawyers are eager to dispense remedies when abuses do occur.

I find the notion that people should be able to refuse / resist arrest an absurd one. It’s a $100 traffic ticket, often. So why pull stunts like refusing to give the cop ID or refusing to sign and accept a ticket?

I haven't weighed in on this yet.

I think there is a healthy balance whereas we can obey authority and question it as well. I've dealt with some corrupt "leaders" leaders in my day. If someone would've spoken up before things got out of hand, it would have saved a lot of pain and suffering.

[Josh]

When you’re pulled over by the cops on the side of the road, it’s not the right time to resist arrest, particularly when the balance of power is you will always lose. Yet this happens often anyway.

And in America, cops have bodycans and a ton of accountability, and courts and lawyers are eager to dispense remedies when abuses do occur.

I find the notion that people should be able to refuse / resist arrest an absurd one. It’s a $100 traffic ticket, often. So why pull stunts like refusing to give the cop ID or refusing to sign and accept a ticket?

I haven't weighed in on this yet.

I think there is a healthy balance whereas we can obey authority and question it as well. I've dealt with some corrupt "leaders" leaders in my day. If someone would've spoken up before things got out of hand, it would have saved a lot of pain and suffering.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I’m just saying the right place to speak up now is after the arrest or detention - in the courts and to the press. Police wear body cams now so there is plenty of evidence of abuses. And there are plenty of lawyers very interested in filing lawsuits against police departments.

Yet we have an epidemic now of the role pointlessly resisting arrest. Sovereign citizens, people with outstanding felony arrest warrants, angry drivers, drunk drivers…

[steve-in-kville]

Yet we have an epidemic now of the role pointlessly resisting arrest. Sovereign citizens, people with outstanding felony arrest warrants, angry drivers, drunk drivers…

Those make for some good Youtube vids. It's extra funny when the bad guy wants to record it all with his phone even though there is already a body cam, dash cam, plus whoever else whipped their phone out.

[Josh]

Yet we have an epidemic now of the role pointlessly resisting arrest. Sovereign citizens, people with outstanding felony arrest warrants, angry drivers, drunk drivers…

Those make for some good Youtube vids. It's extra funny when the bad guy wants to record it all with his phone even though there is already a body cam, dash cam, plus whoever else whipped their phone out.

Recording the cops was a big deal before universal body cams. Apparently, some people haven’t gotten the memo that things have changed since 2019.

[RZehr]

Yet we have an epidemic now of the role pointlessly resisting arrest. Sovereign citizens, people with outstanding felony arrest warrants, angry drivers, drunk drivers…

Those make for some good Youtube vids. It's extra funny when the bad guy wants to record it all with his phone even though there is already a body cam, dash cam, plus whoever else whipped their phone out.

Recording the cops was a big deal before universal body cams. Apparently, some people haven’t gotten the memo that things have changed since 2019.

Well the pandemic did mess up the delivery of a lot of things, memos included.

[Ken]

Yet we have an epidemic now of the role pointlessly resisting arrest. Sovereign citizens, people with outstanding felony arrest warrants, angry drivers, drunk drivers…

Those make for some good Youtube vids. It's extra funny when the bad guy wants to record it all with his phone even though there is already a body cam, dash cam, plus whoever else whipped their phone out.

Recording the cops was a big deal before universal body cams. Apparently, some people haven’t gotten the memo that things have changed since 2019.

The problem is that a lot of police departments now don't release body cam footage or admit that they even have it. So relying on police to provide video documentation of interactions with the public may be less than ideal. Especially in cases where there is any question about police misconduct.

[Josh]

The problem is that a lot of police departments now don't release body cam footage or admit that they even have it. So relying on police to provide video documentation of interactions with the public may be less than ideal. Especially in cases where there is any question about police misconduct.

A FOIA request clears that up - or discovery in a lawsuit. There are a bunch of YouTubers, TikTokers, etc. who make a business out of this. They demand footage of police encounters and then post it on their channel and get lots of views. The police departments don't really like it, but there's nothing they can to do stop it.