submission and punishment

[justme]

You know what would have led to the victim staying alive?

When detained by police, immediately submit to arrest like the rest of us do at a traffic stop instead of arguing and fighting.

End of discussion.

i took away the poster name, because that is not what i want to focus on.

i've seen this concept more than once on here, recently. and it's beginning to bother me.
it has been used in the russia/ukraine conversations. that ukraine should just have capitulated right away. the isreal hamas war. life would be good if the one side would just give in.

as part of coppa liet culture, kids are trained to be submissive, and to be obedient to those over us. and by extension, adults are trained to be submissive to authority/police/ministers, etc.

but the stories that i hear about little kids being beaten to death by conservative dressing church going members do not sit well w me. how can you say that submitting to police will keep you alive? i mean, if parents are capable of beating their own kid to death?

something is wrong w the thot patterns and i haven't figured it out yet.
can you all help me?

[ken_sylvania]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

[Josh]

When you’re pulled over by the cops on the side of the road, it’s not the right time to resist arrest, particularly when the balance of power is you will always lose. Yet this happens often anyway.

And in America, cops have bodycans and a ton of accountability, and courts and lawyers are eager to dispense remedies when abuses do occur.

I find the notion that people should be able to refuse / resist arrest an absurd one. It’s a $100 traffic ticket, often. So why pull stunts like refusing to give the cop ID or refusing to sign and accept a ticket?

[Ken]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

[ken_sylvania]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

Oh yes, absolutely. Did I say something that made you think otherwise?

[Ken]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

Oh yes, absolutely. Did I say something that made you think otherwise?

You comment was about submitting to "authority"

I happen to think it is a 2-way street and that those in positions of authority have an even greater obligation to minimize violence and conflict since we have granted them that authority.

That doesn't mean overlooking wrong-doing. But doing things like avoiding escalating from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds which some police officers are wont to do. The police in many other countries manage to keep order perfectly well while concentrating on conflict de-escalation and other techniques. They also tend to have more professional training than police in the US who often have far less training than that required of hairdressers.

[justme]

but does de-escalation look the same in every situation?
i'm of the opinion that some people respond well to love, and others only respond to pain.
so it would seem to me, that no, de-escalation does not look the same in every situation.

[Ken]

but does de-escalation look the same in every situation?
i'm of the opinion that some people respond well to love, and others only respond to pain.
so it would seem to me, that no, de-escalation does not look the same in every situation.

Of course it doesn't look the same in every situation. It doesn't look the same in any situation since people and situations are different.

It is about giving law enforcement the training and tools to interact with people in more productive ways rather than treating every encounter as a situation to be escalated. This is not something I'm making up. For example, here's a long detailed article on the subject: https://washingtonspectator.org/america ... g-debatto/

[justme]

It is about giving law enforcement the training and tools to interact with people in more productive ways rather than treating every encounter as a situation to be escalated.

i can agree with that.
but then, why does it seem as if it is the responsibility of the "submissive" one to be in charge of de-escalation?

[ken_sylvania]

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

Oh yes, absolutely. Did I say something that made you think otherwise?

You comment was about submitting to "authority"

I happen to think it is a 2-way street and that those in positions of authority have an even greater obligation to minimize violence and conflict since we have granted them that authority.

That doesn't mean overlooking wrong-doing. But doing things like avoiding escalating from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds which some police officers are wont to do. The police in many other countries manage to keep order perfectly well while concentrating on conflict de-escalation and other techniques. They also tend to have more professional training than police in the US who often have far less training than that required of hairdressers.

I don't disagree with you at all. I was simply addressing topic from the standpoint of how I think I need to relate.