submission and punishment

[Josh]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

Yes, however, there are already high standards set in America and training and cops are expected to deescalate and behave peacefully.

Sometimes they do have to detain or arrest someone. That’s part of the magistrate’s job.

[Josh]

It is about giving law enforcement the training and tools to interact with people in more productive ways rather than treating every encounter as a situation to be escalated.

i can agree with that.
but then, why does it seem as if it is the responsibility of the "submissive" one to be in charge of de-escalation?

Why do certain people argue and fight with cops, often for long periods of time, refusing to identify themselves, and then eventually create a situation where force has to be used?

[Ken]

There's two thoughts that come to mind.

Jesus said to agree with your adversary quickly, rather than run the risk of ending up in prison [presumably wrongfully convicted]. It seems like he is saying de-escalation is the way to go.

At the same time, I think it's inaccurate to suggest that as long as someone submits to (parental, church, governmental) authority, that authority will always do the right thing and always be fair.

I don't have a better recommendation other than to be submissive and respectful, but I see that as a tactic to improve the odds of survival rather than a guarantee of survival.

Don't you think Jesus was ALSO talking to the police when it comes to de-escalation and behaving peacefully?

Yes, however, there are already high standards set in America and training and cops are expected to deescalate and behave peacefully.

Sometimes they do have to detain or arrest someone. That’s part of the magistrate’s job.

If they are so highly trained, how come cops in Ohio are required to get less than half the training of hairdressers?

[Josh]

Score: -5 (Low effort)

[Ken]

Score: -5 (Low effort)

It is true. This is what your attorney general says it take to be a cop in Ohio. A minimum of 740 hours of training



But cosmetologists in Ohio require a minimum of 1500 hours of training



740 hours is about 4-5 months of training. Many European countries require 3-4 years of training, same as nurses and teachers.

Not only do American police have the lowest training requirements of any peer nation. They also get the wrong training with most of the focus on weapons and offensive tactics rather than situational management and de-escalation.

[Josh]

It’s an interesting mindset that equates hours with training.

[Ernie]

740 hours is about 4-5 months of training. Many European countries require 3-4 years of training, same as nurses and teachers.

Not only do American police have the lowest training requirements of any peer nation. They also get the wrong training with most of the focus on weapons and offensive tactics rather than situational management and de-escalation.

This explains an awful lot about the policing of America.

So back to the OP,
Many moms of color instruct their children to always respond to orders. Always have both hands on the steering wheel when an officer approaches your vehicle in a traffic stop, always tell them what you plan to do with your hands, if you reach for id, etc.
Their reason for this is that they want to keep their children alive - not because they approve of how police conduct themselves.

This is how I look at the Ukraine/Russia situation. Even though I believe Russia is gravely in the wrong, and its leaders will be judged by God someday, my question is, Is it really worth it to lose a hundred thousand or more fathers?

In situations of family abuse, I think that abusers should be reported to law enforcement. But this is not what spouses and children are supposed to do in many conservative Christian settings. The same is true in many other settings as well.
I'm not saying that a parent should be reported the first time they leave a small mark, make an unkind comment, etc. but when they begin to exhibit a pattern of abuse. And before they report to law enforcement, there may be ways to report it to church leaders, others in the community, etc. if such persons are willing to deal with the matter seriously. Teaching adults and children how to report abusers with love in their hearts for the person, rather than hate is a tall order. But it may make a difference as to whether the child or adult is able to learn forgiveness, vs. developing a hard heart that cannot learn from other better authorities.

But yes, there is a fine line between submission to authority while/vs. standing up against authority that is not reflecting the leadership of Christ.

[Szdfan]

It is about giving law enforcement the training and tools to interact with people in more productive ways rather than treating every encounter as a situation to be escalated.

i can agree with that.
but then, why does it seem as if it is the responsibility of the "submissive" one to be in charge of de-escalation?

Because we have bad ideas about power and authority and tend to blame the victim.

[justme]

thank you ernie, for bringing the conversation back to what i would like to discuss.

Because we have bad ideas about power and authority and tend to blame the victim.

so what can be done to change that? and specifically, to what should we change it?
what would be the correct ideas about power and authority?

[Ken]

thank you ernie, for bringing the conversation back to what i would like to discuss.

Because we have bad ideas about power and authority and tend to blame the victim.

so what can be done to change that? and specifically, to what should we change it?
what would be the correct ideas about power and authority?

Everything is connected and the roots of our law enforcement culture run very deep, as do the characteristics of our culture that led us down the path we are on. The cultural differences between the US and say Norway are profound. And include things like

gun culture and the proliferation of firearms in our country
car culture which has isolated people from each other and put deadly and immensely powerful machines into the hands of everyone.
racism and racial bias in policing (which goes back centuries)
inequality and the abandonment of entire neighborhoods and regions of the country
political gridlock and lack of political will to do the hard things

Making changes in how we relate to each other and how we relate to police and vice versa means addressing all of these things. Which basically means it is a project that will take generations. We won't change the world much in 2024 but we might leave a better world for our grandchildren.