Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

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Wade
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Wade »

appleman2006 wrote:
Soloist wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: I will admit I get a bit over the top on antivaxers, but I have seen the consequences.

J.M.
I do appreciate care on making sure medical needs are taken care of, but I'm cautious about brushing any medical treatment with an outright stamp of approval. At one point antibiotic soap was the best thing, now they are saying its bad. I just prefer that parents are informed of the risk and permitted to make their choices. If the laws like in Ca keep getting passed preventing school unless you are fully vaccinated I'll keep moving to new states till I leave the country. I will not use vaccines grown on human cells from aborted babies. If we never stand against unethical practice, how will things ever change?

As with many disagreements, I don't condemn those who use the vaccines with MRC5 or WI-38 but I personally will not use them nor my children.
And as long as you do not hang out too much with others that think as you do and have enough friends who vaccinate you and your children will probably be just fine.
I, personally would rather be alone and sick than benefit healthwise by the usage of murdered children.
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RZehr
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by RZehr »

I respect the convictions of yours. My question is, would you refuse a murdered mans organs-organ donor or not?
Is the problem the murder?
Or is it the lack of consent of the killed? Or is the motive of the murderers?
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Soloist
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Soloist »

RZehr wrote:I respect the convictions of yours. My question is, would you refuse a murdered mans organs-organ donor or not?
Is the problem the murder?
Or is it the lack of consent of the killed? Or is the motive of the murderers?
The murdered man, well there is a small problem that most organs are unusable unless collected promptly which is not usually the case. If the organs were still usable? As for a criminal donating... well that gets into other problems as well.

As for me personally taking organs, I would have trouble doing so as there are many other people who wait for organs and I would rather value their life higher than my own.
I think my problem specifically with the babies used would be both the consent and the motive.
However, given that assisted suicide is now available in some states and conceivably they would wish to donate organs I still would not want to take those organs as I would rather they lived.

There are many problems and I'm also apposed to using fetuses for medical research unless they died by chance.

In a nutshell, my problem is the sin and participating with it in anyway.

Edit: My wife pointed out I wasn't very clear, I don't have a problem with the murdered man's organs if he was an organ donor assuming he wasn't killed for the organs.
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Wade
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Wade »

RZehr wrote:I respect the convictions of yours. My question is, would you refuse a murdered mans organs-organ donor or not?
Is the problem the murder?
Or is it the lack of consent of the killed? Or is the motive of the murderers?
The problem is more related to my conscience on support of murder rather than judging others actions or motives in committing the sin. Like I said, it is personal rather than enforcing my own conviction on someone.

But I realize I view this very differently than the Mennonites I have met. For example when attending a church that had standards against something that wasn't sin but rather was a guideline to help from sinning they wouldn't feel guilt at all to get non-members to do that something...

I realize one can go to far but I certainly don't want to be encouragement for others to fall into temptation and/or sin. But rather hope to be active in and looking for ways to support them in finding and following Christ as if they will be part of the church and share those standards someday.
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Valerie
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Valerie »

MaxPC wrote:
Three hundred people have been immunized following an outbreak of whooping cough in an Amish community in Missouri.

The community in question is at Seymour in Webster County. This is the largest Amish settlement in the state, with a population of 1500-plus.

As of yesterday there were 15 confirmed cases with 2 babies hospitalized....
http://amishamerica.com/whooping-cough- ... aincontent
I really am inspired by your faith in the power of prayer and the burdens that you carry for others Max.
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Josh
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Josh »

Living in America means benefiting from a murderous regime that keeps us wealthy and safe; I wonder why we choose to make a big deal about 1 fetal stem cell line as if that's any different.
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Soloist
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Soloist »

Josh wrote:Living in America means benefiting from a murderous regime that keeps us wealthy and safe; I wonder why we choose to make a big deal about 1 fetal stem cell line as if that's any different.
I was born into the American country and when you consider what the Bible says, I'm not sure thats good for us or keeps us safe. I can't go and undo were I was born but I can chose myself to not partake in the evil as much as I'm able

Did that baby chose to become a medical experiment? Clearly not but now that we have the choice done, should we choose to serve in the legions defending it and the use?

I'm not advocating political engagement here, I'm just pointing out that choosing non-resistance doesn't match up with what your suggesting as a defense of the fetal line either.

This really is a matter of conscience for those that are convicted about it. Suppose I pointed to someone that had a computer game addiction (totally not thinking of myself here...) :roll: and asked the question, does it glorify God? does it detract from God? I'm sure opinions will be on both sides of this but I know were the conservative would fall on gaming.
Philippians 4: 8-9 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
If you can honestly tell me your heart is clear with using stem cells from aborted babies by these verses then I will not judge you but as for me, I stand condemned if I use them.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Soloist wrote:
Josh wrote:Living in America means benefiting from a murderous regime that keeps us wealthy and safe; I wonder why we choose to make a big deal about 1 fetal stem cell line as if that's any different.
I was born into the American country and when you consider what the Bible says, I'm not sure thats good for us or keeps us safe. I can't go and undo were I was born but I can chose myself to not partake in the evil as much as I'm able

Did that baby chose to become a medical experiment? Clearly not but now that we have the choice done, should we choose to serve in the legions defending it and the use?

I'm not advocating political engagement here, I'm just pointing out that choosing non-resistance doesn't match up with what your suggesting as a defense of the fetal line either.

This really is a matter of conscience for those that are convicted about it. Suppose I pointed to someone that had a computer game addiction (totally not thinking of myself here...) :roll: and asked the question, does it glorify God? does it detract from God? I'm sure opinions will be on both sides of this but I know were the conservative would fall on gaming.
Philippians 4: 8-9 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
If you can honestly tell me your heart is clear with using stem cells from aborted babies by these verses then I will not judge you but as for me, I stand condemned if I use them.
If that "stem cell line" was the original tissue, it would weigh several tons by now. There is none of the original cell material left. I can't change what happened in 1962, under the standards of the time it was considered perfectly acceptable to use about to be discarded pathology material for research. For a better understanding of the use of cell cultures historically, take a look at "The strange case of Henrietta lacks." It occurred in our fair city, so I guess I have been living with this issue for years.

Seriously, there is no reasonable alternative for rubella. I have seen the results of exposure in utero to Rubella. I really don't want to see it again.

No further abortions are necessary, nor will the political presets/boycott campaign do a thing to change this. We would all prefer had this not been done, but we can't change it now. The only thing you can change ones willingness to protect those around you be not being a ready and waiting carrier.

J.M.
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Soloist
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Soloist »

Rubella vaccines

A number of vaccines are available either as single component or combined with either measles vaccine (MR) or measles and mumps vaccines (MMR). Most of the currently licensed vaccines are based on the live, attenuated RA 27/3 strain of rubella virus propagated in human diploid cells. Other attenuated rubella vaccine strains include the Matsuba, DCRB19, Takahashi, Matsuura and TO-336 strains used primarily in Japan, and the BRD-2 strain used primarily in China. Vaccination results in high (>95%) seroconversion rates and protection is generally assumed to be lifelong, although rubella antibodies may fall below detectable levels. Vaccine-induced immunity is generally assumed to be lifelong, although rubella antibodies may fall below detectable levels.
http://www.who.int/biologicals/vaccines/rubella/en/

This isn't to say your wrong that there isn't a good alternative, for one, the BRD-2 is still using another strain from an aborted baby... hmm... and the one I found made in India is also using yet another aborted baby. To believe that no more abortions will occur to aid in vaccines simply is a lie. If I had the ability to read Japanese I could find out about the several versions Japan uses, which by the way, they do not use MMR for risk factors.
The only thing you can change ones willingness to protect those around you be not being a ready and waiting carrier.
I reject this for the same reasons as I reject those who say I need to defend my home from criminals.
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Josh
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Re: Whooping Cough Outbreak Strikes Missouri Amish Community

Post by Josh »

It's frankly offensive that people will gladly use research and benefits from Henrietta Lacks' stem cells (which is basically a great deal of modern medicine), but pitch a fit about anything from ancient fetal stem cell lines.

Let bygones be bygones. If I were an aborted foetus, I'd want my short life to do some good to someone somewhere. Millions of babies are discarded and forgotten each year. Let's focus on having fewer of them and stop worrying about what happened decades ago.
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