So what is the Cause?

[Robert]

Most likely the most intelligent statement I've read in the last pages of this thread. I'm not gonna pretend to understand homosexuality, but I've had more than one gay man tell me that one can't simply "pray the gay away."

Heterosexual males are naturally prone to non-monogamous relationships. We can not pray that away either. We can me mature and self controlled and honor our commitments to our spouse and God.

I am prone to fits of anger. I can not pray that away. I work to control it and make sure I do not put myself in a place that allows my anger to run wild.

Alcoholics are prone to alcoholism. Many accept that they can not drink at all and work to stay away from places that serve alcohol.

We all have crosses to bear. Why does their cross get removed while the rest of us still have to bear ours?

[Bootstrap]

Do either of you acknowledge Roman's 1?

Yes. I think I am describing how this is playing out in our culture. At one time, we largely accepted the Bible as a major source for what is normal and good.

Now, relatively few people in our culture see the Bible that way. They turn to the Internet and popular media and social media when they want to understand sexuality. And very little of that is centered on God. Very little of that glorifies God or thanks God or is subject to God.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

I think the graphs I showed Ken indicate that, showing it in action.

[Bootstrap]

A lot of conservatives seem to think the first two are hard-wired but then somehow think being gay is just a choice. I don't get it.

Most likely the most intelligent statement I've read in the last pages of this thread. I'm not gonna pretend to understand homosexuality, but I've had more than one gay man tell me that one can't simply "pray the gay away."

Maybe some people in this thread think that if it is culturally conditioned, it will feel like it is just a choice. I don't think that. I think culture profoundly affects how we experience the world, how we interpret it, what we feel in response. If you were a freeborn male in Hellenistic Greece, I think you would have different feelings about what choices are available to you.

That's why it's important for Christians to build alternative cultures.

I agree that we can't just "pray the gay away". But to me, this is really about a fundamental principle: are we following the way of Jesus as revealed in the Bible? Or do we just appreciate the parts of it that rhyme with our own modern secular culture? Are we biblical Christians? Or are we NPR-Christians or Fox-Christians?

Following the Bible is hard. We need to carry our burdens together. It's hard for singles. It's hard for people who are attracted to the same sex. It's hard for people who are inclined to be judgmental, who like to point fingers at others, who like to slander and gossip.

How can we honor and walk alongside people who wrestle with these things, without normalizing the sin? If we do that, some people will accuse us of hating gays, others will accuse us of "eating with tax collectors and sinners". That can be hard too. But I think that is the way of Jesus.

[Grace]

A lot of conservatives seem to think the first two are hard-wired but then somehow think being gay is just a choice. I don't get it.

Most likely the most intelligent statement I've read in the last pages of this thread. I'm not gonna pretend to understand homosexuality, but I've had more than one gay man tell me that one can't simply "pray the gay away."

Maybe some people in this thread think that if it is culturally conditioned, it will feel like it is just a choice. I don't think that. I think culture profoundly affects how we experience the world, how we interpret it, what we feel in response. If you were a freeborn male in Hellenistic Greece, I think you would have different feelings about what choices are available to you.

That's why it's important for Christians to build alternative cultures.

I agree that we can't just "pray the gay away". But to me, this is really about a fundamental principle: are we following the way of Jesus as revealed in the Bible? Or do we just appreciate the parts of it that rhyme with our own modern secular culture? Are we biblical Christians? Or are we NPR-Christians or Fox-Christians?

Following the Bible is hard. We need to carry our burdens together. It's hard for singles. It's hard for people who are attracted to the same sex. It's hard for people who are inclined to be judgmental, who like to point fingers at others, who like to slander and gossip.

How can we honor and walk alongside people who wrestle with these things, without normalizing the sin? If we do that, some people will accuse us of hating gays, others will accuse us of "eating with tax collectors and sinners". That can be hard too. But I think that is the way of Jesus.

There are many things we do not agree on, but this post is well said and I agree. I know of an older man who was molested as a child. Whether that had an influence on his same sex attraction as a grown man, I do not know. However he really struggled with same sex attraction for many years and it was a hardship in his life. But some kind Christian men walked beside him with love and compassion for a long period of time and in his older years he found freedom in Christ.

Gay people deserve kindness and respect, because they are people who Christ died for. And it is hard to walk along side people who struggle with these things, without normalizing sin.

[Falco Knotwise]

The Bible explicitly says homosexuality is related to a loss of contact with transcendent reality (God) and thus misattributing transcendent qualities to immanent reality.

With the loss of contact with the transcendent God there is nothing higher to aspire to and thus it becomes an inordinate search for pleasure seeking in worldly things.

(With nothing higher for eros to aspire to it reaches an end in endless pleasure seeking. It becomes an "orientation" because of the loss of contact with transcendent reality.)

(In Paul's words God "gave them over" to such "orientations" meaning that without return to the transcendent reality they've lost there's little that can be done to heal the orientation.)

So, I'd agree it's not a simple "choice." It's a far more complex matter involving a vast array of cultural influences. Atheistic or even anti-christian influences are everywhere these days.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

— Romans, chapter 1

[Falco Knotwise]

There are many things we do not agree on, but this post is well said and I agree. I know of an older man who was molested as a child. Whether that had an influence on his same sex attraction as a grown man, I do not know. However he really struggled with same sex attraction for many years and it was a hardship in his life. But some kind Christian men walked beside him with love and compassion for a long period of time and in his older years he found freedom in Christ.

Gay people deserve kindness and respect, because they are people who Christ died for. And it is hard to walk along side people who struggle with these things, without normalizing sin.

I fully agree with you, Grace. Well said.

[Falco Knotwise]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

[Bootstrap]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

I agree.

And in fact, each time Paul addresses homosexuality, it is in a list that includes other sins. We need to take all of these sins seriously. And we need to take the opposite seriously, pursuing the glory of God.

Romans 1:28-(NIV):

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV):

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NIV):

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

[Bootstrap]

In Romans, this is the text that occurs immediately after what I quoted in the last passage. After clearly pointing out these sins, Paul warns us not to pass judgment on these people. When we write about these issues, I think our posts should reflect the concerns Paul expresses here.

Romans 2:1-11 (NIV)

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

[Falco Knotwise]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

I agree.

And in fact, each time Paul addresses homosexuality, it is in a list that includes other sins. We need to take all of these sins seriously. And we need to take the opposite seriously, pursuing the glory of God.

Romans 1:28-(NIV):

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV):

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NIV):

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

Yes, I fully agree Jesus loves homosexuals and died to save them as well as any of the rest of us sinners.

What is problematic about homosexuality is the tendency to try to normalize it.

An adulterer (usually) doesn't try to excuse or "normalize" adultery. Everyone knows cheating on your spouse is wrong.

Gender ideologies seek to make the spiritual condition normative.

This is why people often focus their attention more on homosexuality than on other sins like adultery.