So what is the Cause?

[Josh]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

My interpretation of this is that practicing homosexuality is a subset do idolatry. (Temple prostitution is another absolutely abhorrent practice that is also part of idolatry.)

[Falco Knotwise]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

My interpretation of this is that practicing homosexuality is a subset do idolatry. (Temple prostitution is another absolutely abhorrent practice that is also part of idolatry.)

Yes, I'd say that's a good way to put it.

[Bootstrap]

Yes, I fully agree Jesus loves homosexuals and died to save them as well as any of the rest of us sinners.

What is problematic about homosexuality is the tendency to try to normalize it.

An adulterer (usually) doesn't try to excuse or "normalize" adultery. Everyone knows cheating on your spouse is wrong.

Gender ideologies seek to make the spiritual condition normative.

This is why people often focus their attention more on homosexuality than on other sins like adultery.

I think sleeping around has been largely normalized in our society these days. Especially for singles - most Americans no longer expect singles to be celibate. But polyamory is also being normalized in some places, especially if your spouse is OK with it. And there's a lot of understanding for someone who isn't getting sex at home and decides to venture out.

I think a lot of people are also normalizing judgmentalism and slander and a bunch of the other sins Paul mentions in these lists.

Some churches are normalizing homosexuality. Others are normalizing other sins from these lists. We need to be careful not to normalize any of these sins.

[Falco Knotwise]

Yes, I fully agree Jesus loves homosexuals and died to save them as well as any of the rest of us sinners.

What is problematic about homosexuality is the tendency to try to normalize it.

An adulterer (usually) doesn't try to excuse or "normalize" adultery. Everyone knows cheating on your spouse is wrong.

Gender ideologies seek to make the spiritual condition normative.

This is why people often focus their attention more on homosexuality than on other sins like adultery.

I think sleeping around has been largely normalized in our society these days. Especially for singles - most Americans no longer expect singles to be celibate. But polyamory is also being normalized in some places, especially if your spouse is OK with it. And there's a lot of understanding for someone who isn't getting sex at home and decides to venture out.

I think a lot of people are also normalizing judgmentalism and slander and a bunch of the other sins Paul mentions in these lists.

Some churches are normalizing homosexuality. Others are normalizing other sins from these lists. We need to be careful not to normalize any of these sins.

Well, now we're moving on to normalizing pedophilia and even zoophilia. In colleges! There was a time when people who warned of such a slippery slope were laughed out of town. How many of those people would still be laughing today?

I agree there has to be a balancing act between criticism and judgmentalism. We have to keep in mind we're all sinners.

[temporal1]

Addendum: Paul is very specific: he says they "exchange the glory of God" for creatures. Glory is closely associated with grandeur and beauty. According to Paul, homosexuals are misidentifying the source of this "glory" with creatures rather than with the creator of the creatures.

On the other hand, it appears to me Paul says this about all idolaters, but he does draw out how it specifically manifests in homosexuals.

My interpretation of this is that practicing homosexuality is a subset do idolatry.
(Temple prostitution is another absolutely abhorrent practice that is also part of idolatry.)

Falco:
Yes, I'd say that's a good way to put it.

”This is what happens when you make a god of the libido.”

i believe others agree with this, with varying words.

The most problematic part is, so many are IGNORANT of scriptural truth and language, ignorance makes them “quick work” for lies.
Worship of all things carnal, worship of self, are just “basic human reasoning” that “anyone” can understand+embrace! [Beware.]

Shame on those who know better, should know better, claim to know better!

[temporal1]

Most likely the most intelligent statement I've read in the last pages of this thread.
I'm not gonna pretend to understand homosexuality, but I've had more than one gay man tell me that one can't simply "pray the gay away."

Heterosexual males are naturally prone to non-monogamous relationships. We can not pray that away either.
We can me [be] mature and self controlled and honor our commitments to our spouse and God.

I am prone to fits of anger. I can not pray that away.
I work to control it and make sure I do not put myself in a place that allows my anger to run wild.

Alcoholics are prone to alcoholism.
Many accept that they can not drink at all and work to stay away from places that serve alcohol.

We all have crosses to bear.
Why does their cross get removed while the rest of us still have to bear ours?

Scriptures warn about human reasoning. It can be a bear to wrestle.

Today, promotion of “self as god” runs rampant. It may have been labeled decades ago as “the me generation.”
Today, many might react to this idea with, “why not worship self as god?”

Life based on sheer ignorance is bound to lead to pitfalls.

[Ken]

In Romans, this is the text that occurs immediately after what I quoted in the last passage. After clearly pointing out these sins, Paul warns us not to pass judgment on these people. When we write about these issues, I think our posts should reflect the concerns Paul expresses here.

Romans 2:1-11 (NIV)

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

In Romans 1, Paul is very obviously and explicitly talking about the Cult of Isis which was a very popular and competing religion to Christianity at that time in the Roman Empire. The cult of Isis emerged out of Egypt and used Egyptian iconography including people dressed up with the heads of animals and the use of Egyptian hieroglyphics and pictures depicting birds and other animals. So, for example:



The Isis cult also contained bizarre and promiscuous sex rites and devotees would go to the Isis temples for sex but the cult also had celibate priests who gave up sex with women (but apparently not with other male priests).

Now read Romans 1 versus 22-25 in this context (especially verse 23):

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Paul was writing to a group of Roman Christians warning them specifically about what was an extremely popular cult at that time that was in direct competition with Christianity. Can you extract from that a message against all forms of homosexuality for all time? Maybe. But that is most certainly not the context in which Romans 1 was written.

Look it up if you don't believe me. There has been a lot of scholarly writing on this subject. Just google Paul, Romans I, Cult of Isis and you will get hundreds of hits.

[temporal1]

.. because, you know, the cult of google.

[Ken]

.. because, you know, the cult of google.

Are you just being pointlessly snarky?

Or do you have an actual criticism of what I wrote?

[Josh]

I think sleeping around has been largely normalized in our society these days. Especially for singles - most Americans no longer expect singles to be celibate. But polyamory is also being normalized in some places, especially if your spouse is OK with it. And there's a lot of understanding for someone who isn't getting sex at home and decides to venture out.

Spot on, Boot. And these problems are as serious as homosexuality or transsexuality - and more widespread.

What precipitated this? Many factors. Christians used to take a stance against birth control, but that softened starting in 1926 with the Anglican Church, and eventually became acceptable even in very conservative Christian circles. But this overall lead to a disconnection between human sexuality and marriage+having babies. Ultimately, I think this leads to dehumanisation of sexuality. (I am obviously very influenced by Humana Vitae on this topic.)

think a lot of people are also normalizing judgmentalism and slander and a bunch of the other sins Paul mentions in these lists.

Some churches are normalizing homosexuality. Others are normalizing other sins from these lists. We need to be careful not to normalize any of these sins.

I agree. They all need to be taught against from the pulpit and taught against at home.