Closed Communion On Threads

[Ken]

I should add that you’re right that they will not bat an eye if I wear plain coat or my wife wears a covering, indeed they may thrill to the idea that it connects them in some strange way to the past or their upbringing or the way that congregation used to be. They will however, brook no public dissent to things like full inclusion for gay and transgender members or women in leadership.

That hasn't been my experience at all and I have been around a number of what you would call liberal churches. No one is expelling conservatives. You just can't expect to get your way if you aren't in the majority.

Same thing at the larger level with MCUSA. I don't think it is the case that MCUSA has ever expelled a single congregation much less whole conferences like LMC. Rather they very much pled for them to stay. It was the conservative churches who expelled themselves rather than the other way around.

And no, I obviously don't know how things went down in your particular congregation so I'm just extrapolating from what I have seen. Maybe your experience was different.

And yes, I agree that liberals can be intolerant. Frankly everyone can be intolerant. I just don't think liberal churches tend to be exclusionary in the same way that conservative churches are. Put another way, there are a whole lot of things that can get you kicked out of a conservative church. There is very little that can get you kicked out of a liberal church and especially disagreements on points of theology. You pretty much have to do something like child sexual abuse or sexual assault to actually get yourself kicked out.

Now conservatives may find that to be the very problem with liberal churches. That they are too accepting and don't adhere to conservative standards. But that reinforces my point.

[HondurasKeiser]

I should add that you’re right that they will not bat an eye if I wear plain coat or my wife wears a covering, indeed they may thrill to the idea that it connects them in some strange way to the past or their upbringing or the way that congregation used to be. They will however, brook no public dissent to things like full inclusion for gay and transgender members or women in leadership.

That hasn't been my experience at all and I have been around a number of what you would call liberal churches. No one is expelling conservatives. You just can't expect to get your way if you aren't in the majority.

Same thing at the larger level with MCUSA. I don't think it is the case that MCUSA has ever expelled a single congregation much less whole conferences like LMC. Rather they very much pled for them to stay. It was the conservative churches who expelled themselves rather than the other way around.

And no, I obviously don't know how things went down in your particular congregation so I'm just extrapolating from what I have seen. Maybe your experience was different.

And yes, I agree that liberals can be intolerant. Frankly everyone can be intolerant. I just don't think liberal churches tend to be exclusionary in the same way that conservative churches are.

I never thought to get my way on certain issues but neither was there real space to give alternative or minority views a hearing. I wouldn’t have gotten expelled over my ideas but I was expected to keep them to myself. That’s not a liberal or tolerant position by Sudsy’s definition. I’m glad though that you experienced something different in the MC/MCUSA world. Your last paragraph is not far off from how I see things.

[Ken]

I should add that you’re right that they will not bat an eye if I wear plain coat or my wife wears a covering, indeed they may thrill to the idea that it connects them in some strange way to the past or their upbringing or the way that congregation used to be. They will however, brook no public dissent to things like full inclusion for gay and transgender members or women in leadership.

That hasn't been my experience at all and I have been around a number of what you would call liberal churches. No one is expelling conservatives. You just can't expect to get your way if you aren't in the majority.

Same thing at the larger level with MCUSA. I don't think it is the case that MCUSA has ever expelled a single congregation much less whole conferences like LMC. Rather they very much pled for them to stay. It was the conservative churches who expelled themselves rather than the other way around.

And no, I obviously don't know how things went down in your particular congregation so I'm just extrapolating from what I have seen. Maybe your experience was different.

And yes, I agree that liberals can be intolerant. Frankly everyone can be intolerant. I just don't think liberal churches tend to be exclusionary in the same way that conservative churches are.

I never thought to get my way on certain issues but neither was there real space to give alternative or minority views a hearing. I wouldn’t have gotten expelled over my ideas but I was expected to keep them to myself. That’s not a liberal or tolerant position by Sudsy’s definition. I’m glad though that you experienced something different in the MC/MCUSA world. Your last paragraph is not far off from how I see things.

Like I said, I don't know what your personal experiences are. But with all things there is a time and a place for discussion and debate. I expect at some point the congregation you attended had the very discussion you sought and gave hearing to alternate views. And then having chosen to be welcoming of LGBT members they moved on and didn't expect members to constantly argue and litigate the point after the decision had been made. I doubt they expected everyone to agree but rather to respect the decision once it had been made. It is no different in any other church. A conservative church might struggle over a particular rule like internet use or dress code or method of baptism. And might listen to different views during that process. But once they have come to a decision they move on and don't expect people to endlessly litigate it every Sunday.

One of my criticisms of some of the liberal churches that I have been around is that they are too unwilling to actually make stands about anything. They just want to welcome everyone and want everyone get along and so often not a whole lot actually gets done. It can just be endless process and the avoidance of difficult decisions. But then the stands I'm looking for are probably different from the stands that you are looking for. I have the same criticism of some liberal school administration related to the avoidance of making difficult decisions. There are parallels.

[Valerie]

I guess those who come from more closed fellowship backgrounds with rules lean toward more control over people. The way I see it, this is not a church but a place for open discussion amongst all believers. As the heading says 'Where Mennonites and others connect'.

i agree with what you’re saying, i don’t internalize it as you do.

i don’t take it personally if someone wants a more focused (public) discussion. In fact, i’m grateful to have the opportunity to read such discussions. It’s a window into a world i might learn something from. i appreciate it.

i’ve learned a lot on this forum. hope to continue. i enjoy the subjective nature. as Josh wrote above, it adds to the experience.

I tend to agree. We are encouraged in the New testament to be like-minded. At this point in the 2000 year church at Large it doesn't seem possible for us all to be like-minded. Therefore I can appreciate the discussions taking place among those that are like-minded according to their interpretations / understandings which would put them in the conservative category. When more liberal Christians add their thoughts it gets to frustrating and more argumentative, more contention happens. Therefore I appreciate and don't take it personal because I understand the purpose of what they're trying to accomplish in those threads.

[steve-in-kville]

Conservatives do not exclude for no reason. Can you think of what any of those reasons might be?

I'm an ex-transplant. I have no idea where I fit in

[Sudsy]

In my experience, I find learning better in a shared environment where differing opinions are allowed to be expressed on a topic. Jesus did not isolate Himself from the questions and views of the Pharisees and others. I tend to think if we have beliefs that 'hold water' than we should be able to take on any challenges to that belief and ultimately be able to agree to disagree if need be.

The last home Bible study I attended, the MB pastor was one of our attenders and he welcomed all kinds of questions and was very patient with things I knew he did not agree with. He was quite good at expressing his beliefs and sometimes would use the church's statement of faith and expand upon it with scriptural support. Sometimes it was to give an alternate way of understanding a text from the way someone had understood it and he did it without giving that person the feeling that they had been 'shot down'. He would, as he did in Sunday sermons, give alternate understandings of some texts and then explain his choice to believe. I found his approach to be very gentle yet non-compromising and considered him to be a good example to follow, which I don't always do. He helped create an environment where people felt at ease to question even long held traditions and doctrines of the church.

As far as keeping focused in any discussion, I have no problem with the thread originator entering a discussion to keep the topic focused on the original issue(s) in the OP. What I find concerning is when Christians try to separate themselves from one another and bring their church distinctions into play to force others out of a conversation in an open forum. Yes, as some have said, we can just read and gain from a read-only restriction or ignore the restriction and post anyway (which I question that attitude). I suspect those who try to isolate threads to their own church group come from quite closed church environments where there isn't much allowance for alternate views to what that group believes. I could be wrong.

Anyway, I hope it doesn't get to a place where I can start a thread and say 'the following people are not invited to share on this' followed by their userids. I guess it is a matter of how 'open' discussions are going to be here beyond what is in writing and not permitted.

With that said, I request a moderator to close this thread from further discussion.

[temporal1]

.. Anyway, I hope it doesn't get to a place where I can start a thread and say 'the following people are not invited to share on this' followed by their userids. I guess it is a matter of how 'open' discussions are going to be here beyond what is in writing and not permitted. ..

i hope it doesn’t escape you that over years+years on MD+MN, admin+mods have consistently refused to permit “user IDs” to be used to exclude members from topics.

In addition to this, guidance is repeated to not “speak for others,” etc.

Defaulting to admin+mods, rather than over reacting to any individual, is a huge help in how to proceed.
Certainly, there are members who have strong opinions that may come across as tho they are admin+mods! THEY AREN’T.

i’m not sure it’s intentional. It may be writing/speaking style they think nothing of.

Still, the forum has admin+mods. They are present, conscientious, alert, not easily fooled. They are devout believers.
This forum is fortunate to have them.

.. Blessings for your journey.

[ken_sylvania]

I suspect those who try to isolate threads to their own church group come from quite closed church environments where there isn't much allowance for alternate views to what that group believes. I could be wrong.

I haven't observed any instances of anyone trying to isolate threads to their own church group. In the instances where people have asked that participation be only by folks holding certain basic beliefs, it's not generally been by closed-minded, controlling people as you suggest.

Anyway, I hope it doesn't get to a place where I can start a thread and say 'the following people are not invited to share on this' followed by their userids. I guess it is a matter of how 'open' discussions are going to be here beyond what is in writing and not permitted.

With that said, I request a moderator to close this thread from further discussion.

I thought you are in favor of "open" discussions. What gives?