Soul Winning Survey

[Ernie]

I think it was the late Wayne in Maine who first introduced me to the idea that most Augustinians essentially believe in ritualistic salvation. For Catholics and Orthodox it is baptism and communion and so forth. Much the same for many Mainline Protestants. For many Evangelicals it is praying a sinner's prayer or something akin to that. At the end of the day, if you go through particuluar rituals, you can feel ok about your eternal state.

In contrast, we have Zaccheus having an encounter with Jesus that changed his life, and Jesus telling him that salvation had come to his house. So maybe the way to receive the free gift of salvation is to follow Jesus? Probably not a ritual but maybe giving up anything between a person and Jesus and taking up the path of Jesus?

[Josh]

Prayed with one person to become a Christ follower

I think such prayers are good but I don't think they necessarily "win souls", as the person I prayed with to become a Christ follower did not follow through on making Jesus king.

[Sudsy]

I think it was the late Wayne in Maine who first introduced me to the idea that most Augustinians essentially believe in ritualistic salvation. For Catholics and Orthodox it is baptism and communion and so forth. Much the same for many Mainline Protestants. For many Evangelicals it is praying a sinner's prayer or something akin to that. At the end of the day, if you go through particuluar rituals, you can feel ok about your eternal state.

In contrast, we have Zaccheus having an encounter with Jesus that changed his life, and Jesus telling him that salvation had come to his house. So maybe the way to receive the free gift of salvation is to follow Jesus? Probably not a ritual but maybe giving up anything between a person and Jesus and taking up the path of Jesus?

The problem I have with the phrase to 'follow Jesus' or to 'take up the path of Jesus' is that this can mean a variety of things to many people. If I take everything literally in what Jesus said and I try to do the same things Jesus did, it would be impossible and I don't know of anyone who has.

I agree that there are some that follow a religious practise that they believe is Christian and even some that will claim they did miraculous things in Jesus name, yet Jesus will say He never knew them and to depart as they are actually 'workers of inquity'.

In the Zaccheus story it could be read that salvation requires doing as Zaccheus did to be saved by giving half of his possessions to the poor and giving back 4 times the amount he may have cheated anyone. That reads like salvation by good works when other scriptures say salvation cannot be obtained that way. I believe in Zaccheus statement he was acknowledging his sinning and was ready to take action to correct his ways which indicates a changed heart and Jesus knew his heart had changed. Zaccheus was not trying to buy his salvation through good works.

Paul writes in Eph 2:8,9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Saying a 'sinner's prayer', however that is developed, means nothing if one's heart is not turning to God by faith to receive His gift of salvation. All those who have faith like Abraham's faith will be saved. Romans 4:16

Jesus explained to Nicodemus that to see the Kingdom of God, one must be born again, born of the Spirit. And follows this with our well known John 3:16 in how to have eternal life.

Back to the 'following Jesus' phrase I think it requires much more explanation as what that means in practise according to the scriptures and as Paul writes what is of first importance in this age of grace is that we believe Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again and this is the base of the Gospel that saves us. This is the basic message of the Gospel and when believed by faith, we are born again.

Would love to hear more on this as I think it matters as to how we approach sharing the Gospel.

[Ernie]

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

About 15 years ago I heard a pastor with 8 grades of education say, "There is a lot in the Bible I don't understand."
Listening to his vocabulary it would have been easy to think, "I can understand why."
His next sentence was, "But there is much in the Bible that is painfully easy to understand."
There are a few memorable quotes that have directed my life and this is one of them. I purposed to give the rest of my life to what is painfully easy to understand. (Much of what you see from me on MN is simply my recreation.)

Someone has observed that the Reformers focus seemed to be, "If the Bible does not condemn a certain thing then it must be ok."
The early Anabaptist motto was, "Whatever the NT holds up as ideal, this we will try to do!"
The fruit that comes from these two worldviews puts people miles apart.

New Testament Commands
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions they can be classified under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter. If obeyed, they will bring rich rewards here and forever; if disobeyed, they will bring condemnation and judgment from God.

Rather than focus on which one's don't need to be obeyed, I prefer to start with the weightier matters and then work on the less weighty matters as I am able. Any commands or teachings that are unclear to me I place at the end of the list.

[Sudsy]

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

About 15 years ago I heard a pastor with 8 grades of education say, "There is a lot in the Bible I don't understand."
Listening to his vocabulary it would have been easy to think, "I can understand why."
His next sentence was, "But there is much in the Bible that is painfully easy to understand."
There are a few memorable quotes that have directed my life and this is one of them. I purposed to give the rest of my life to what is painfully easy to understand. (Much of what you see from me on MN is simply my recreation.)

First, I appreciate your reply. As you know my background has been more from certain evangelical understandings even when I was involved in an MB church that had much of the same understandings of salvation as I was raised in. But I am not as familiar with other Mennonite beliefs on subjects such as this but am curious for various reasons. Here are a few more thoughts as I read your reply -

What I find that might be considered 'painfully easy to understand' are what I understand to be truth and what pleases God but are areas that my flesh doesn't care to do even though my spirit is willing. I will continue fighting this battle and when I am an overcomer I experience the joy this brings to my spirit. Is this a correct understanding of what you mean by 'painfully' ?

Someone has observed that the Reformers focus seemed to be, "If the Bible does not condemn a certain thing then it must be ok."
The early Anabaptist motto was, "Whatever the NT holds up as ideal, this we will try to do!"
The fruit that comes from these two worldviews puts people miles apart.

I don't know who said that about the Reformers focus but it sounds to me like quite an overstatement imo. What the early Anabaptists meant by 'the NT holds up as ideal' would need more clarity for me to know what things are considered 'ideal' (which I take means Jesus model for imitation) as there are many things Jesus did that none of us have done and likely most of us will never do. Then, for me, it becomes a matter of should I try everything Jesus did or arm I to follow what the Holy Spirit is leading me to do as He is my current guide. Yes/No ?

New Testament Commands
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions they can be classified under about 800 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter. If obeyed, they will bring rich rewards here and forever; if disobeyed, they will bring condemnation and judgment from God.

Perhaps if I had a look at these 1,050 NT commands I could verify that these are commands for every Christian to obey, imo. I can think of commands that Jesus gave that certainly need to be looked into and not taken literally as stated. When I do disobey a command, which I believe we all do daily, I view Jesus more as He treated the woman caught in adultery - 'neither do I condemn thee go and sin no more'. I agree that disobedience brings adverse consequences of varying degrees and obedience does bring reward in our relationship with God. What I don't believe is that imperfect obedience will cause any born again believer to lose their salvation (else we all are doomed).

Rather than focus on which one's don't need to be obeyed, I prefer to start with the weightier matters and then work on the less weighty matters as I am able. Any commands or teachings that are unclear to me I place at the end of the list.

And how do you know what matters of obedience are weightier than others. Some might say immersion baptism is a pretty weighty matter whereas another would say it isn't whereas another would say being a pacifist is a very weightier matter and others would say not.

To me, to follow Jesus is to be guided by the Holy Spirit as He alone knows what we need to know and do and His guidance will not conflict with the teachings of Jesus that were meant to include us. I don't believe every command that Jesus gave were for all believers for all time.

[Ernie]

What I find that might be considered 'painfully easy to understand' are what I understand to be truth and what pleases God but are areas that my flesh doesn't care to do even though my spirit is willing. I will continue fighting this battle and when I am an overcomer I experience the joy this brings to my spirit. Is this a correct understanding of what you mean by 'painfully' ?

I suppose that is one good application.
Another application is that we see a clear instruction in scripture that we don't want to do. It is easy to understand what is being expected of us but we really don't want to do it.

And how do you know what matters of obedience are weightier than others. Some might say immersion baptism is a pretty weighty matter whereas another would say it isn't whereas another would say being a pacifist is a very weightier matter and others would say not.

Jesus tells us what the weightier matters are. Mercy, Justice/Judgment, Faith, Love of God

What I don't believe is that imperfect obedience will cause any born again believer to lose their salvation (else we all are doomed).

I don't believe this either, and don't know of anyone who does.

I don't believe every command that Jesus gave were for all believers for all time.

Again I don't know of anyone that believes this one either.

It does appear that your mindset is more like that of the reformers... a focus on what we don't need to do and still be ok, instead of a focus on what all we can do and could be doing that we are not yet doing.

[MaxPC]

I think it was the late Wayne in Maine who first introduced me to the idea that most Augustinians essentially believe in ritualistic salvation. For Catholics and Orthodox it is baptism and communion and so forth.

PSA: a succinct and correct expression of Catholic belief in Salvation is encompassed by the Nicene Creed which we pray at every Mass.

Rituals are those outward actions and gestures that are symbolic of the deeper spiritual reality.

PSA finished. Keep calm and carry on.

[Joy]

"...Don't want to do..." I find it very convicting, the words of Jesus, "I delight to do thy will." Do I always delight in His commands? No, I'm ashamed to say.

And the other side of the coin, as I read in my daily Bible reading last night, curses would come on God's people, Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; Deut. 28:47

Wow. God has done SO, so much for us, I certainly should serve Him happily, joyfully, thankfully.

[Sudsy]

What I find that might be considered 'painfully easy to understand' are what I understand to be truth and what pleases God but are areas that my flesh doesn't care to do even though my spirit is willing. I will continue fighting this battle and when I am an overcomer I experience the joy this brings to my spirit. Is this a correct understanding of what you mean by 'painfully' ?

I suppose that is one good application.
Another application is that we see a clear instruction in scripture that we don't want to do. It is easy to understand what is being expected of us but we really don't want to do it.

And how do you know what matters of obedience are weightier than others. Some might say immersion baptism is a pretty weighty matter whereas another would say it isn't whereas another would say being a pacifist is a very weightier matter and others would say not.

Jesus tells us what the weightier matters are. Mercy, Justice/Judgment, Faith, Love of God

What I don't believe is that imperfect obedience will cause any born again believer to lose their salvation (else we all are doomed).

I don't believe this either, and don't know of anyone who does.

I don't believe every command that Jesus gave were for all believers for all time.

Again I don't know of anyone that believes this one either.

It does appear that your mindset is more like that of the reformers... a focus on what we don't need to do and still be ok, instead of a focus on what all we can do and could be doing that we are not yet doing.

I had a post already to go on your responses and my computer glitched. So I will just give a couple remarks.

Those areas that you say you don't know anyone with beliefs I mentioned is perhaps a result of our different exposer to other faith groups. I do know of those who believe in these ways and I didn't mean to infer that is how you believe.

But I will respond to your last paragraph regarding thinking like the reformers. Imo, yes, there are some reformers that appear to be promoting an 'easy beliefism' form of Christrianity but the same can be said of other groups including Anabaptists. I believe some reformers took issue with those who they thought could 'work their way to heaven' and to them it was not being saved by grace through faith and not by our good works. And to some extent, I believe, their emphasis was mis-understood by some as salvation will produce good works. One is not born again by a head belief but rather a heart belief that changes how we live and I'm sure you agree with that.

Regarding this thread's topic of soul winning it would seem to me (and also only being under the teaching of one Anabaptist church who had a similar approach to becoming a Christian) that it appears the mindset of some Anabaptists is that the Evangelical approach to soul winning (altar calls, sinner's prayer, etc) are not NT methods but rather Jesus just calling people to come follow Him is more of the scriptural practise. So, by trying somehow to get the unsaved to start following Jesus teachings, they will eventually be born again. Would you say this is a basic difference or how would you express soul winning from an Anabaptist understanding ?

[Neto]

Jesus custom tailored his "approach" for each person. Yes, he knew everyone fully from the first meeting, so we cannot respond quickly like that. But I do think that if we take the time to really know a person, we will have a perception that helps us to do the same as Jesus did. There are of course other occasions where the Holy Spirit will bring words out of your mouth, words you didn't come up with yourself. The Holy Spirit is there, knowing the depths of the other person just as Jesus always did. But I will also point out how Jesus' main approach was to invite people into a personal relationship with himself. (This really stands out in the story of the "rich young ruler". We focus too much on the "Give all of your goods to the poor," wondering if that's what we should be doing, and miss the part where he said "and come follow me". "BE with me.") You can go back into the OT, and you will see that that's what God was doing all along. God called to Adam in the garden "Where are you?" (He obviously already knew.) At Mt Sinai it was the people themselves who said to Moses, "Don't let God talk to us directly, you do it, and then you tell us what he said." (I always think of a song by Linda Rich, back in the "Jesus Revolution" days, where in one line she says, "And I'll keep right on searching till You find me." We may search, but He finds.)