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Ernie wrote:Registration is now open for this event. Please see details at the link below.

http://www.plainnews.org/wp-content/upl ... g-2018.pdf

Just to highlight a few logistical details that I am available to help with:

1. If anyone would appreciate financial help with traveling expenses, please contact me by PM here on MD, or by my email listed on the program.

2. If anyone would like to donate toward this assistance, you can contact me as well.

3. If it is inconvenient for you to bring food, please contact me.

-Mike

mike wrote:I don't think it is persons with particular affiliations that are persona non grata, but the belief that one is of the one true church is a problem. If that is what you truly believe, you probably don't want to come to a gathering like this anyway, except as an evangelist for your denomination. Which Ernie is trying to avoid.

That's right.
Anyone from any denomination can attend this event, as long as they:
1. Do not support or condone a one-true-church doctrine (which the majority of CAs consider heresy and sectarianism)
2. Want to learn more about the worldview of plain, non-sectarian Anabaptists
3. Do not influence seekers against investigating/considering/joining a plain, non-sectarian Anabaptist or similar type church

I suppose it would be possible to have a "Christian convention" in which various groups would stand up and present their understanding of Christianity and then have a booth in the side room where people could come and ask questions. Seekers who aren't really sure what version suits them could come and become familiar with the different belief systems and then try one. I might even want to have a booth at such an event. The more I think about it, the more I like this idea.

However, the seeker friends I want to invite to SG already know what they don't want and are wanting to learn more about the belief system that I am introducing them to, and that is the whole purpose of this event. Beyond that, I want to learn some things along with them at the same time.

Ernie wrote:

Wade wrote:

mike wrote:The point isn't that they [Church of God in Christ Mennonite Aka: Holdeman] aren't meek or that they push their beliefs on others. The point is they have a doctrine about church that is fallacious.

And so it is a stumbling block to newcomers especially, the very people the event seems to be designed in helping.

Yes, I don't know which is worse.
1. People being dogmatic with their beliefs thereby making seekers feel condemned if they don't agree with them.
or
2. People being meek and quiet about their beliefs, thereby making seekers feel welcome, with the seekers discovering down the road that they are wrong if they disagree.

As nasty as the first is, at least a seeker knows up front what he is getting into.

I wish we could avoid both of these, but I guess that probably isn't possible. The other extreme would be those people who would like to help seekers but come from churches who aren't overly seeker friendly. Finally, I guess seekers need to know that becoming part of a church can be a messy business at times. It scares me most when I see people coming to church with the expectation that they have finally found utopia. Invariably these families are soon on their way again, because no church can offer utopia. I think that in almost all cases, seekers successfully integrating into an Anabaptist church are able to do so because they have found a family or two to mentor them and stand alongside them during the process.

Ernie, I think someone should give a talk at this conference on this. It would need careful handling because we don't want to discourage people, but facing reality is important. Otherwise, we are setting up a disaster waiting to happen.

I sense here that attendees are required to already have a specific belief system or else are not welcome to attend.

I don’t have a quarrel with this, but it does seem odd, particularly if that belief system isn’t well spelled out. I would have thought my own beliefs are well aligned with Ernie’s, but this thread has taught me that not a single church I have been a part of or regularly visited (FEC, Midwest, independent Beachy, Keystone, CMC, ARC Hutterite, and now Holdeman) clears the bar.

lesterb wrote:Ernie, I think someone should give a talk at this conference on this. It would need careful handling because we don't want to discourage people, but facing reality is important. Otherwise, we are setting up a disaster waiting to happen.

A talk about churches seekers should not attempt to join because of their heresy or their way of treating people?

Ernie wrote:

lesterb wrote:Ernie, I think someone should give a talk at this conference on this. It would need careful handling because we don't want to discourage people, but facing reality is important. Otherwise, we are setting up a disaster waiting to happen.

A talk about churches seekers should not attempt to join because of their heresy or their way of treating people?

This would be a start.

I’m still waiting for a list of what acceptable churches would be. I hope you can forgive my frustration - it’s just very saddening to realise I’ve never picked the “right” church, not once. It really makes me wonder what I’m doing wrong.

lesterb wrote:

Ernie wrote:

Wade wrote:
And so it is a stumbling block to newcomers especially, the very people the event seems to be designed in helping.

Yes, I don't know which is worse.
1. People being dogmatic with their beliefs thereby making seekers feel condemned if they don't agree with them.
or
2. People being meek and quiet about their beliefs, thereby making seekers feel welcome, with the seekers discovering down the road that they are wrong if they disagree.

As nasty as the first is, at least a seeker knows up front what he is getting into.

I wish we could avoid both of these, but I guess that probably isn't possible. The other extreme would be those people who would like to help seekers but come from churches who aren't overly seeker friendly. Finally, I guess seekers need to know that becoming part of a church can be a messy business at times. It scares me most when I see people coming to church with the expectation that they have finally found utopia. Invariably these families are soon on their way again, because no church can offer utopia. I think that in almost all cases, seekers successfully integrating into an Anabaptist church are able to do so because they have found a family or two to mentor them and stand alongside them during the process.

Ernie, I think someone should give a talk at this conference on this. It would need careful handling because we don't want to discourage people, but facing reality is important. Otherwise, we are setting up a disaster waiting to happen.

I'll admit that I created expectations in looking for a church as we were not satisfied with Catholicism or Protestantism, and in a sense were looking for "the true church.". The closet church being a Holdeman church and so the first Mennonite Church we attended really encouraged that mindset as they stressed and gave me books on Apostolic succession.
It feed my disillusionment for some time and am still coming to terms in realizing many things in regards to this.

And in regards to the heart of approach - maybe others are different but sometimes being "dogmatic," to me is actually just being open and honest, while some try to hide "light" in thinking they are meek but a partial truth in many aspects is usually decietful and was much a disappointment in the expectation that I had created that we would find a church that was straight forward, open and honest(as I perceived). However, not to forget this also is quite delicate as newcomers can be excited and oversensitive...

The seperation that happens for a newcomer from their old life leaves them outside a spiritual mature Christian in discipling and standing beside them until someone is willing to accept them rather than just welcoming them. I believe naturally we actually crave that but very much struggle with that relationship. I would encourage newcomers to not be shy in seeking out counsel and part of the reason I am in support for this event to happen and be available to those seeking His face.

Ernie wrote:

lesterb wrote:Ernie, I think someone should give a talk at this conference on this. It would need careful handling because we don't want to discourage people, but facing reality is important. Otherwise, we are setting up a disaster waiting to happen.

A talk about churches seekers should not attempt to join because of their heresy or their way of treating people?

No, I don't think it needs to be a negative presentation, just a realistic one.
1. No church can offer you Utopia on earth.
2. All churches are works in progress and consist of humans
3. You will face disappointments that can seem insurmountable unless you realize these truths.
4. Since no church is perfect, you will need to look for one that has a package that you can feel at home with. This package will ALWAYS include some things that you don't really like, but if you feel that you want what they are producing, you will be able to overlook such items.
5. Don't get desperate. Take your time. Make friends. Aim towards becoming members but don't make it your holy grail in life.
6. Most of all, keep your eyes on Jesus. Don't look to men because men will let you down (and women). If your peace in life is anchored to Jesus, other disappointments won't derail you as quickly.

This isn't to discourage church membership. Becoming part of a church is important and should be your goal. But don't let it become such an all-consuming goal that problems will destroy you when they arise.

Josh wrote:When my best friend got baptised into a Midwest church last year, I rejoiced and attended it. Even though he wears short pants sometimes and this is condoned by Midwest Mennonite Fellowship churches, I still count him as a brother. I don't know if he would be welcome at your Seekers' Gathering or not, as he has no conviction to wear long pants, and apparently nobody else at his church thinks men wearing long pants should be enforced.

Anybody who wants to learn from people who wear long pants (and the other things in the list) is welcome to express their interest in an event like this and request an invite.
I don't care if they are Amish, Midwest, or Methodist. The "list" is not intended to make any kind of denominational statement but rather to identify people who are heading a similar direction and aiming at a similar mark .

Josh wrote:Since then, I made a decision that whatever problems happen in a Mennonite church, I'm not going to be the person who fixes them or brings about change, and my efforts to notice open sin or situations that could turn very, very bad were not fruitful. I just need to trust that leaders will have vision and will see problems, and if things get really bad, my only option is to simply leave. It's not my job to fix things.

I think these would be topics worth exploring, whether at the SG or in another context:

When, why, and how to advocate for change
When, why, and how to leave