Abortion?

[Franklin]

Is there anything in the Bible against abortion? I follow the Old Testament and I can think 2 passages relevant to abortion, and both seem to support abortion. I am personally strongly in favor of abortion because it allows the worst people to avoid having children. I have absolutely no idea why Christians oppose abortion, so I am asking here.

[MaxPC]

Is there anything in the Bible against abortion? I follow the Old Testament and I can think 2 passages relevant to abortion, and both seem to support abortion. I am personally strongly in favor of abortion because it allows the worst people to avoid having children. I have absolutely no idea why Christians oppose abortion, so I am asking here.

Yes, there is. I recommend you do some Bible reading specific to the topic of preborn children. There are a number of Bible studies that address this topic available on the interweb. A simple search should turn them up.

Re your statement: I am personally strongly in favor of abortion because it allows the worst people to avoid having children.
Perhaps you have not met those who were pressured to get an abortion who later had children, raised them well and regretted their abortions? By assuming that there are "worst people" you are indicating that you know all of their situation and all of their heart. I assure you, you do not.

[barnhart]

Hi Franklin, I think you will find from the historical record that objection to infanticide and by extension abortion has its roots in the early church. Historian Tom Holland bears this out in his book "Dominion".

I don't think this value descends from a direct proof text in the New Testament, rather it is the application of the implications of Jesus. If the human form is important enough to contain God himself, it is sacred. This is also the root of other values that have formed the western world like charitable concern for the poor and associated economic "safety nets", radical leveling of social hierarchy (notable in the early church), the equalization of status between men and women, and a belief in the potential of every human.

I recommend Holland's book if you are interested as he carefully charts the rise of these ideas using secular sources.

[temporal1]

Franklin:
.. so I am asking here.

hopefully, your questions will be answered, and the Holy Spirit will bless you with understanding. God wants to draw you to Him.
2 Peter 3:9

8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief.
The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare.…

[Szdfan]

Hi Franklin, I think you will find from the historical record that objection to infanticide and by extension abortion has its roots in the early church. Historian Tom Holland bears this out in his book "Dominion".

I don't think this value descends from a direct proof text in the New Testament, rather it is the application of the implications of Jesus. If the human form is important enough to contain God himself, it is sacred. This is also the root of other values that have formed the western world like charitable concern for the poor and associated economic "safety nets", radical leveling of social hierarchy (notable in the early church), the equalization of status between men and women, and a belief in the potential of every human.

I recommend Holland's book if you are interested as he carefully charts the rise of these ideas using secular sources.

This seems to be an argument from tradition rather from the text itself, which to me seems like an odd argument coming from a literalist “Sola Scriptura” perspective.

Franklin has a point. There’s no direct prohibition of abortion in the text.

[temporal1]

In today’s world, Mary would have been counseled to abort, counseled to lie about her pregnancy, given all means to do so without her parents’ knowledge. The Jesus God “knit together” in her womb would have been extracted+sold for body parts. Psalm 139:13

There are worse things than poverty. i was born into poverty, LIFE WAS VALUED. each new pregnancy, no matter how troubled, inconvenient, unaffordable, even unwanted - was valued. “always room for one more at the table.”

i did not know i lived in poverty until one day at school, 5-6th grade, my teacher inadvertently told me. i was shocked.
i thought we were “fine.” we were rich in love. when i think back, i relive that moment of lost innocence, i guess you could say.

Notably in my mind, i witnessed some “very unwanted” babies turn into the most beloved babies of all.
God’s plans can be very much unwanted. He does have plans! We are best to respect them.

Poll: Were you planned?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4131&p=134285&hilit ... ed#p134285

[silentreader]

Hi Franklin, I think you will find from the historical record that objection to infanticide and by extension abortion has its roots in the early church. Historian Tom Holland bears this out in his book "Dominion".

I don't think this value descends from a direct proof text in the New Testament, rather it is the application of the implications of Jesus. If the human form is important enough to contain God himself, it is sacred. This is also the root of other values that have formed the western world like charitable concern for the poor and associated economic "safety nets", radical leveling of social hierarchy (notable in the early church), the equalization of status between men and women, and a belief in the potential of every human.

I recommend Holland's book if you are interested as he carefully charts the rise of these ideas using secular sources.

This seems to be an argument from tradition rather from the text itself, which to me seems like an odd argument coming from a literalist “Sola Scriptura” perspective.

Franklin has a point. There’s no direct prohibition of abortion in the text.

That probably depends on whether you consider abortion to be murder, or the shedding of blood or the taking of life.

[Szdfan]

Hi Franklin, I think you will find from the historical record that objection to infanticide and by extension abortion has its roots in the early church. Historian Tom Holland bears this out in his book "Dominion".

I don't think this value descends from a direct proof text in the New Testament, rather it is the application of the implications of Jesus. If the human form is important enough to contain God himself, it is sacred. This is also the root of other values that have formed the western world like charitable concern for the poor and associated economic "safety nets", radical leveling of social hierarchy (notable in the early church), the equalization of status between men and women, and a belief in the potential of every human.

I recommend Holland's book if you are interested as he carefully charts the rise of these ideas using secular sources.

This seems to be an argument from tradition rather from the text itself, which to me seems like an odd argument coming from a literalist “Sola Scriptura” perspective.

Franklin has a point. There’s no direct prohibition of abortion in the text.

That probably depends on whether you consider abortion to be murder, or the shedding of blood or the taking of life.

I think you can make a religious argument against abortion, but I think that argument relies heavily on inference and tradition, not what it actually says in the text.

There’s a participant on here who frequently responds to discussions on various social justice issues that this particular issue is not mentioned in the Bible, which I think he means that the issue is irrelevant to Christians. Strictly speaking, abortion is also not mentioned in the Bible.

[temporal1]

Legalistically speaking, abortion (and certainly) for-profit corporate abortion, are not specified in scriptures.
In our times, it’s decidedly about “for-profit.” Outside of for-profit interests, abortions remain taboo.
Murder for hire.

i suggest .. study of Thomas.
Thomas is our scriptural interface between doubting humankind and Jesus, God, Holy Spirit.

https://biblehub.com/topical/t/thomas.htm

Smith's Bible Dictionary
Thomas
(a twin), one of the apostles. According to Eusebius, his real name was Judas. This may have been a mere confusion with Thaddeus, who is mentioned in the extract. But it may also be that; Thomas was a surname. Out of this name has grown the tradition that he had a twin-sister, Lydia, or that he was a twin-brother of our Lord; which last, again, would confirm his identification with Judas. Comp. (Matthew 13:55) He is said to have been born at Antioch. In the catalogue of the apostles he is coupled with Matthew in (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15) and with Philip in (Acts 1:13) All that we know of him is derived from the Gospel of St. John; and this amounts to three traits, which, however, so exactly agree together that, slight as they are they place his character before us with a precision which belongs to no other of the twelve apostles except Peter, John and Judas Iscariot. This character is that of a man slow to believe, seeing all the difficulties of a case, subject to despondency, viewing things on the darker side, yet full of ardent love of his Master. The latter trait was shown in his speech when our Lord determined to face the dangers that awaited him in Judea on his journey to Bethany. Thomas said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." (John 11:16) His unbelief appeared in his question during the Last Supper: "Thomas saith unto him Lord we know not whither thou goest, and how can we: know the way" (John 14:5) It was the prosaic, incredulous doubt as to moving a step in the unseen future, and yet an eager inquiry as to how this step was to be taken. The first-named trait was seen after the resurrection. He was absent --possibly by accident, perhaps characteristically --from the first assembly when Jesus had appeared. The others told him what they had seen. He broke forth into an exclamation, the terms of which convey to us at once the vehemence of his doubt, and at the same time the vivid picture that his mind retained of his Master's form as he had last seen him lifeless on the cross. (John 20:25) On the eighth day he was with them st their gathering, perhaps in expectation of a recurrence of the visit of the previous week; and Jesus stood among them. He uttered the same salutation, "Peace be unto you;" and then turning to Thomas, as if this had been the special object of his appearance, uttered the words which convey as strongly the sense of condemnation and tender reproof as those of Thomas had shown the sense of hesitation and doubt. The effect on him was immediate. The conviction produced by the removal of his doubt became deeper and stronger than that of any of the other apostles. The words in which he expressed his belief contain a far higher assertion of his Master's divine nature than is contained in any other expression used by apostolic lips--"My Lord and my God." The answer of our Lord sums up the moral of the whole narrative: "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen me, and yet have-believed." (John 20:29) In the New Testament we hear of Thomas only twice again, once on the Sea of Galilee with the seven disciples, where he is ranked next after Peter, (John 21:2) and again in the assemblage of the apostles after the ascension. (Acts 1:13) The earlier traditions, as believed in the fourth century, represent him as preaching in Parthia or Persia, and as finally buried at Edessa. The later traditions carry him farther east, His martyrdom whether in Persia or India, is said to have been occasioned by a lance, and is commemorated by the Latin Church on December 21 the Greek Church on October 6, and by the Indians on July 1.

ATS Bible Dictionary
Thomas
The apostle, Matthew 10:3, called in Greek Didymus, that is, a twin, John 20:24, was probably a Galilean, as well as the other apostles; but the place of his birth, and the circumstances of his calling, are unknown, Luke 6:13-15. He appears to have been of an impulsive character, sincerely devoted to Christ, ready to act upon his convictions, and perhaps slow to be convinced, as he at first doubted our Lord's resurrection, John 11:16; 14:5-6; 20:19-29. Several of the fathers inform us that he preached in the Indies; and others say that he preached in Cush, or Ethiopia, near the Caspian sea.

There are nominal Christians in the East Indies, who bear the name of St. Thomas, because they report that this apostle preached the gospel there. They dwell in a peninsula of the Indus, on this side the gulf.

Easton's Bible Dictionary
Twin, one of the twelve (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18, etc.). He was also called Didymus (John 11:16; 20:24), which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name. All we know regarding him is recorded in the fourth Gospel (John 11:15, 16; 14:4, 5; 20:24, 25, 26-29). From the circumstance that in the lists of the apostles he is always mentioned along with Matthew, who was the son of Alphaeus (Mark 3:18), and that these two are always followed by James, who was also the son of Alphaeus, it has been supposed that these three, Matthew, Thomas, and James, were brothers.
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
THOMAS
tom'-as (Thomas; ta'om, "a twin" (in plural only):

1. In the New Testament:

One of the Twelve Apostles. Thomas, who was also called "Didymus" or "the Twin" (compare John 11:16; John 20:24; John 21:2), is referred to in detail by the Gospel of John alone. His election to the Twelve is recorded in Matthew 10:3 Mark 3:18 Luke 6:15 Acts 1:13. In John 11:1-54, when Jesus, despite imminent danger at the hands of hostile Jews, declared His intention of going to Bethany to heal Lazarus, Thomas alone opposed the other disciples who sought to dissuade Him, and protested, "Let us also go; that we may died with him" (John 11:16). On the eve of the Passion, Thomas put the question, "Lord, we know now whither thou goest; how know we the way?" (John 14:5). After the crucifixion, Thomas apparently severed his connection with the rest of the apostiles for a time, as he was not present when the risen Christ first appeared to them (compare John 20:24). But his subsequent conversation with them, while not convincing him of the truth of the resurrection-"except I shall see.... I will not believe" (John 20:25)-at least induced him to be among their number eight days afterward (John 20:26) in the upper room. There, having received the proofs for which he sought, he made the confession, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and was reproved by Jesus for his previous unbelief: "Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He was one of the disciples to whom Jesus manifested Himself during the fishing expedition at the Sea of Tiberias (John 21:1-11).

2. In Apocryphal Literature:

According to the "Genealogies of the Twelve Apostles" (compare Budge, The Contendings of the Apostles, II, 50), Thomas was of the house of Asher. The oldest accounts are to the effect that he died a natural death of (compare Clement of Alexandria iv.9, 71). Two fields are mentioned by apocryphal literature as the scene of Thomas' missionary labors.

(1) According to origen, he preached in Parthia, the according to a Syrian legend he died at Edessa. The Agbar legend also indicates the connection of Thomas with Edessa. But Eusebius indicates it was Thaddaeus and not Thomas who preached there (see THADDAEUS).

(2) Along with these are other sources identifying Thomas with India. Thus, "The Acts of Thomas" (see APOCRYPHAL ACTS, sec. B, V), a Gnostic work dating from the 2nd century, tells how when the world was partitioned out as a mission field among the disciples, India fell to "Judas Thomas, also called Didymus," and narrates his adventures on the way, his trials, missionary success, and death at the hands of Misdai, king of India (compare Budge, II, 404;; Hennecke, Neutestamentliche Apokryphen, 473-544; Pick, The Apocryphal Acts, 224;). The "Preaching of Thomas" (compare Budge, II, 319) relates still more fantastic adventures of Thomas in India, and the "Martyrdom of Thomas in India" states that on his departure toward Macedonia he was put to death as a sorcerer.

Of the two, the former is the more probable. An attempt at reconciliation has been made by supposing that the relics of Thomas were transported from India to Edessa, but this is based on inaccurate historical information (compare Hennecke, op. cit., 474). The additional names "Judas" and "Didymus" have causd further confusion in apocryphal literature in regard to Thomas, and have led to his identification with Judas of James, and hence, with Thaddaeus (see THADDAEUS), and also with Judas the brother of Jesus (compare Matthew 13:55). Thus in the "Acts of Thomas" he is twice called the "twin brother of the Messiah." Another legend makes Lysia the twin sister of Thomas. A Gnostic "Gospel of Thomas" (see APOCRYPHAL GOSPELS, III, 2, (a)) was known to Irenaeus (compare Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., 1, 20).

3. Character:

Although little is recorded of Thomas in the Gospels, he is yet one of the most fascinating of the apostles.

He is typical of that nature-a nature by no means rare-which contains within it certain conflicting elements exceedingly difficult of reconciliation. Possessed of little natural buoyancy of spirit, and inclined to look upon life with the eyes of gloom or despondency, Thomas was yet a man of indomitable courage and entire unselfishness. Thus with a perplexed faith in the teaching of Jesus was mingled a sincere love for Jesus the teacher. In the incident of Christ's departure for Bethany, his devotion to his Master proved stronger than his fear of death. Thus far, in a situation demanding immediate action, the faith of Thomas triumphed; but when it came into conflict with his standards of belief it was put to a harder test.

For Thomas desired to test all truth by the evidence of his senses, and in this, coupled with a mind tenacious both of its beliefs and disbeliefs, lay the real source of his religious difficulties.

It was his sincerity which made him to stand aloof from the rest of the disciples till he had attained to personal conviction regarding the resurrection; but his sincerity also drew from him the testimony to that conviction,
“My Lord and my God," the greatest and fullest in all Christianity.

C. M. Kerr

THOMAS, GOSPEL OF

See APOCRYPHAL GOSPELS, III, 2, (a).

Greek
2381. Thomas -- "the twin," Thomas, one of the twelve apostles
... 2380, 2381. Thomas. 2382 . "the twin," Thomas, one of the twelve apostles.
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: Thomas ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/2381.htm - 6k
1324. Didumos -- Didymus.
... Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: Didumos Phonetic Spelling:
(did'-oo-mos) Short Definition: the Twin, Didymus, Thomas Definition: the Twin ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/1324.htm - 6k

4102. pistis -- faith, faithfulness
... "Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (WH Griffith Thomas, 55). "Faith is always
a response to a divine revelation" (WH Griffith Thomas, 143). "Faith . . . ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4102.htm - 18k

There is more ..
May we all become as Thomas.

[Sudsy]

Is there anything in the Bible against abortion? I follow the Old Testament and I can think 2 passages relevant to abortion, and both seem to support abortion. I am personally strongly in favor of abortion because it allows the worst people to avoid having children. I have absolutely no idea why Christians oppose abortion, so I am asking here.

I believe one main reason most Christians oppose abortion is that they oppose murder and some regard killing of a fetus is murder. And the ten commandments of the OT also says not to murder. Seems to me it hinges on when does life begin. At contraception or when we are born into this world and take our first breath or somewhere in between (i.e. the 9th week when considered to be a fetus).

But then if it is murder, then we should also look to see what Jesus said that God regards as murder and yet Christians murder each other often in the way Jesus put it in Mathew 5:22-23 or as it states in 1 John 3:15 which the latter says - AMP

Everyone who hates (works against) his brother [in Christ] is [at heart] a murderer [by God’s standards]; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Anabaptists are opposed to all forms of murder/killing of humans from contraception to final death in doctrine, I believe (I could be wrong). However, imo, what the NT includes as to what murder includes is not given the same regard at times and it gives us cause to question our own salvation. We can't hate another Christian or the love of God is not in us. 1 John 4:20. We are called a liar.

There are anti-abortionist Christians that appear to cross the line into hatred of those Christians who do not believe as they do and perhaps the 1 John 3:15 text above is something we all should keep in mind on any subject ?

I personally have not determined when an abortion is not murder but lean toward after the 9 week point. Other believers lean toward or have settled on another point in the birth process and/or under certain conditions.

Interesting to me is that in the NT this was not a big topic but rather the emphasis is to focus on the born and exposing them to Jesus and salvation of their souls. How many active anti-abortionists are spending as much or more time reaching the physically alive yet spiritually dead folk ? I wonder.

Regarding being the 'worse people', I am glad, as the apostle Paul was, that Jesus died to save sinners and has, is and will save me from the penalty, power and someday very presence of sin. Hallelujah to the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world !!! I hope you too, Franklin, have or soon will have the knowing that to be absent from this body, will be to be forever with the Lord. How exciting and motivating this is for Christians to press on toward being more Christ like and sharing this faith with others.