Diverse Viewpoints

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.

Diverse Viewpoints

 
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Valerie
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Valerie »

Ernie wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I didn't explain my vote at all - what does that make me?
Obedient.
If you selected 'other' you were not to explain. Any of the other choices selected it seemed he wanted to hear how we feel (as his second post stated).
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Bootstrap
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Bootstrap »

I wasn't sure which of three choices to pick.

For one thing, I am pretty hungry right now. But if I ate something, I wouldn't know which of these to pick:

1. I think my positions and viewpoints are in the minority on this site, and are thinly represented.
2. I think my positions and viewpoints are in the majority on this site, and are well represented.

I like DanZ's lists of the positions and viewpoints shared among Anabaptists / Mennonites, and I think they give us significant commonality. On the whole, I would probably go with #2.

Some people feel quite strongly about the things that divide plain Mennos from non-plain Mennos, and there are times I can feel like going with #1 when we discuss those things. But non-plain Mennos are not "thinly represented" here, and it is not usually the plain Mennonites who put me on the defensive.

In general, I like to approach diverse viewpoints by:

1. Being completely open about beliefs and practices, without hiding differences.
2. Knowing my sense of direction and my understanding of how to seek God's guidance in Scripture within the Body.
3. Giving grace for other approaches, while still being very clear about what they actually teach and why I am not going that particular direction.
4. Seeing myself as one member of Christ's body, where some members may be quite different from me indeed. Heaven will contain many people who strongly disagree with me now.
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lesterb
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by lesterb »

Wade wrote:Diverse viewpoints can come from such diverse experiences.

Viewpoints aside I am going to generalize and assume :? in saying this:

It seems there are two kinds of regular posting people on here.

1. Those who don't have a healthy (or any) church family and loves some kind of fellowship and spiritual talk that they are so badly lacking or are missing on a deeper level...

2. Those who know there are others out there that are lacking that fellowship and have a desire through the love of Christ to reach out and participate on here because they do care.

Both sides are troubled and even disgusted by some of the posts and diverse viewpoints and struggles expressed but yet because of Christ come back to connect or be connected.
I hope that number two in this post represents me. It's my desire. Right now, I've fallen behind on my participation. I glance at the headings occasionally, but that's about as far as I get. I'm in the middle of a major transition in my life right now, and that's taking a lot of my attention. Similar to MennoNet in some ways, but a lot more intensive. Hopefully, more productive too.

As far as the poll goes, I would have voted for both of the first two if I could have, because it varies depending on what subjects are in the forefront. On the whole, though, I feel that MennoNet has a different atmosphere than MennoDiscuss tended to.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Bootstrap »

Wade wrote:Diverse viewpoints can come from such diverse experiences.

Viewpoints aside I am going to generalize and assume :? in saying this:

It seems there are two kinds of regular posting people on here.

1. Those who don't have a healthy (or any) church family and loves some kind of fellowship and spiritual talk that they are so badly lacking or are missing on a deeper level...

2. Those who know there are others out there that are lacking that fellowship and have a desire through the love of Christ to reach out and participate on here because they do care.

Both sides are troubled and even disgusted by some of the posts and diverse viewpoints and struggles expressed but yet because of Christ come back to connect or be connected.
Interesting. I started out in the first category, joining MennoDiscuss at a time that my first marriage was breaking up and I was attending the same Mennonite church as my former wife, eventually choosing to leave that church. I've been Mennonite most of my adult life, but wound up attending another kind of church, while remaining very much Mennonite in my beliefs.

I'm now more in the second category. I'm quite happily engaged in several volunteer ministries right now, feeling much more connected to my current church than I was a year ago, eating lunch with the men from my Mennonite church most Fridays. I really appreciate Dan's summary of what Mennonites are all about, and I still miss that, I would like to see it more widely available. I see people coming here looking for things that they won't find in all churches.
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quietpilgrim
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by quietpilgrim »

I voted that I don't know why I'm here.

At the risk of being called a shill or troll, I'm just a middle aged guy with the wrong last name who's still trying to figure all this out and is none the better for it.

I came out of one of the "historic Christian Communions", and meaning no offense to Valerie or Max, but I no longer could accept wholesale the claims of any of them. Part of it (and only part of it) is best summed up by an English bishop of the 19th century: "The sunshine of secular favour has ever been the most potent of all instruments for the undermining of the Church's loyalty to her ancient traditions."

That said, I'm not particularly convinced at this point that Anabaptism, especially as it is practiced here in the 21st century is a perfect restoration of early Christianity either. Show me a congregation that practices the tenets of the Schleitheim Confession today, and then I might be a bit more persuaded. But for now, the conservative Anabaptist camp is where I muddle along.

Recent discussions on the Anabaptist theology forum, in particular the threads on penance and church standards, revealed the disconnect I feel in my own heart. I sometimes feel like we're all talking past each other and not really listening to what each other is saying. We all are on a journey, and I wish there was a way we could respect each other's journey a bit more without being so reactionary. I'm not picking on anyone imparticular, only making a general observation.

So I'm on the fence. And others here are on that fence for for a variety of reasons. Hopefully there's enough grace here at Mennonet for those of us stradling the fence for us to have some sense of belonging here.

QP
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MaxPC
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by MaxPC »

quietpilgrim wrote:I voted that I don't know why I'm here.

At the risk of being called a shill or troll, I'm just a middle aged guy with the wrong last name who's still trying to figure all this out and is none the better for it.

I came out of one of the "historic Christian Communions", and meaning no offense to Valerie or Max, but I no longer could accept wholesale the claims of any of them. Part of it (and only part of it) is best summed up by an English bishop of the 19th century: "The sunshine of secular favour has ever been the most potent of all instruments for the undermining of the Church's loyalty to her ancient traditions."
No worries, QP; I'm not offended. I enjoyed your post.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Bootstrap »

quietpilgrim wrote:That said, I'm not particularly convinced at this point that Anabaptism, especially as it is practiced here in the 21st century is a perfect restoration of early Christianity either. Show me a congregation that practices the tenets of the Schleitheim Confession today, and then I might be a bit more persuaded. But for now, the conservative Anabaptist camp is where I muddle along.
I don't think any modern church is a perfect restoration of early Christianity, and I think we each tend to see ourselves in the early Church, which often says more about us than it does about the early Church. But I think we have to try, looking primarily to the Bible, learning from what some churches have done right at various times in history. And I think Mennonites / Anabaptists have gotten some things very right.

But we have also gotten some things very wrong. MC-USA's current problems are blatantly obvious, but I think there are certain plain groups that also have gotten some things wrong. We need to keep trying, by God's grace, doing what he reveals to us, with enough humility to realize we are probably getting some of it wrong.

And some people we criticize loudly get an awful lot of things right. There are Reformed Christians and Catholics who live exemplary lives, and Mennonites of all persuasions who do not. There are things we can learn from other traditions that may be missing in our own. Sometimes we seem to have a partisan zeal to proclaim that our tribe is the best. I think that gets in the way.
quietpilgrim wrote:Recent discussions on the Anabaptist theology forum, in particular the threads on penance and church standards, revealed the disconnect I feel in my own heart. I sometimes feel like we're all talking past each other and not really listening to what each other is saying. We all are on a journey, and I wish there was a way we could respect each other's journey a bit more without being so reactionary. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, only making a general observation.
I'm sure I sometimes contribute to that disconnect.

I suspect that part of this is that we rarely share much about our personal journeys. Maybe we don't want to be that vulnerable to each other. I don't even share much about what I am doing teaching English to Syrian refugees. This isn't a place where I would normally talk about how we live out our faith in home and marriage and career choices and everyday life, what I struggle with in prayer, concerns for my children, etc. So it often misses the heart of how I live.

On the flip side, we spend so much time and effort on things that are not at the heart of our journey. In the penance thread, I don't think many of us who see ourselves as Mennonites or Anabaptists are going to use the term "do penance" to describe what we do, and we won't do it the same way Catholics do. I thought Josh's thread was more promising - how do we overcome sin in our lives and move on?
quietpilgrim wrote:So I'm on the fence. And others here are on that fence for for a variety of reasons. Hopefully there's enough grace here at Mennonet for those of us stradling the fence for us to have some sense of belonging here.
A lot of the threads that I find alienating have one thing in common: they tell you who the good people and the bad people are, imply that the person posting is one of the good people and some others here are not, and use a standard that is not central in the teachings of Jesus. When I read these threads, I often feel like they are saying, "I thank God that I am not like that tax collector over there".

In my church, my fellowship, and my Sunday School, we are generally asking for God's grace to help us see clearly and follow more closely, very aware that we are not 100% there yet. To me, that kind of conversation feels closer to God's grace.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:Good to see no one is hungry. And everyone knows what I'm talking about. :up: 8-)
I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I think it's good:
Valerie wrote:The Anabaptists had a great deal of influence on me for years- my eyes were opened to the fact that many passages I glossed over that they emphasized more than where I'd been for decades. I was hungry to learn more and apply what I was learning- and share it with others as well- it had become very discouraging to share as so many I would talk with- would simply disagree.
I think many of us are hungry for more, and that doesn't mean we're always starting from a wrong place. Longing for God, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, seeking to see things with God's eyes ... there is so much more that I need to live into.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled ...

Do we sometimes get stuck in self-righteousness instead? Justifying ourselves, wanting others to know that we are part of the tribe that gets it right?
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Josh
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Re: Diverse Viewpoints

Post by Josh »

I suspect that part of this is that we rarely share much about our personal journeys.
I've shared a lot of my personal journey here, including my failures.

Unfortunately, one person here likes to keep inventory of those and use them to attack me. That makes me not really want to share my personal journey at all.
Josh: You've talked repeatedly about failing at everything you've attempted both on MN and MD. I've told you about one major behavior you employ that causes those problems and failures. Change that behavior and see more success; or don't change it and you will continue creating failures for yourself. It's your decision and life.

Discussion ended.
I'd be glad to share more of my personal journey, but I don't really want to do so in a place where attacks like the above are normal. It's my job not to get hurt by words like the above. But I do have to cope and deal with it.
My way is to simply be a lot less open here and not take what is said on MN very seriously.
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