How was church today ?

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
cmbl
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by cmbl »

buckeyematt2 wrote: The term "Trinity" is not found in Scripture at all, yet Scripture teaches it. Same for "Second Coming". With that in mind, see Rom. 3:27-28; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:9; etc. Also verses like John 3:16 and Acts 16:31. True belief produces repentance and a changed life; James in the verse you cite is arguing against an early form of easy believism, or against an idea of salvation that involves only lip assent and no genuine repentance. When he says "justified by works", he means that faith is shown and proven by works.
I am aware of those prooftexts and familiar with the Protestant interpretation of James. Complicated interpretation is needed to make "justified by works and not by faith alone" into "justified by faith alone."
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MattY
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by MattY »

cmbl wrote:
buckeyematt2 wrote: The term "Trinity" is not found in Scripture at all, yet Scripture teaches it. Same for "Second Coming". With that in mind, see Rom. 3:27-28; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:9; etc. Also verses like John 3:16 and Acts 16:31. True belief produces repentance and a changed life; James in the verse you cite is arguing against an early form of easy believism, or against an idea of salvation that involves only lip assent and no genuine repentance. When he says "justified by works", he means that faith is shown and proven by works.
I am aware of those prooftexts and familiar with the Protestant interpretation of James. Complicated interpretation is needed to make "justified by works and not by faith alone" into "justified by faith alone."
Well, if I am proof-texting, then what are you doing? :lol: And as for complicated interpretation, I disagree; the verses I cited, and the verse you cited, were written by different authors, and it's not that hard to understand that they might not mean the same thing when using the term "justification" - in fact it has to be, for one explicitly says Abraham was justified by works, the other explicitly says he was not. If my interpretation is deemed "complicated", so must yours be. The least complicated interpretation would be that Paul and James contradict each other, but that is unacceptable according to biblical inspiration and inerrancy, and also wrong according to context.
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cmbl
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Re: How was church today ?

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Have you considered that, rather than meaning different things by "justification," they might mean different things by "works of the Law/works"?
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MattY
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by MattY »

Since I'm posting here, I should probably address the actual topic. All but one of our ministers were gone, which can be a "problem" since our ministers handle both Sunday morning devotions and the sermon. Usually, one of the laymen would be asked to step up in this scenario, but a few young people have just begun an instruction class (for baptism), and so for devotions we are going through the articles of the Dortrecht Confession, one every Sunday (it was the second article yesterday). The applicants for baptism sit on the front bench, so everyone can see them - or more likely, so they can focus better. (I don't know if this is what other CA churches do too?) Thankfully, a visiting minister happened to be here, so he had the message and our minister had the devotions. He half-joked that he had been afraid he was going to have to do three things - the devotions, the instruction class during Sunday school, and the sermon - but God provided a solution.

The message was on the parable of the Sower, and hearing and doing the Word of God.
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Re: How was church today ?

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cmbl wrote:Have you considered that, rather than meaning different things by "justification," they might mean different things by "works of the Law/works"?
Yes, there is an NMB guy who attends our church (not a member though) who has argued that. We've gone around and around on it several times. I don't think that adequately explains Paul, for various reasons, and I don't think it takes into account the context where they show what they mean by justification - for Paul, it's about the forgiveness of sins and being declared righteous in God's sight, and for James, it's about demonstrating and proving one's genuine faith. (I'm saying there's evidence in context that they don't mean the same thing - more than just as an explanation to avoid contradiction).
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Sudsy
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by Sudsy »

Great sermon today entitled - 'Not Just Faith, but Following'. We continued on with the study of Anabaptism and how the Anabaptists took Christianity beyond the Protestant Reformation to focus on trying to follow Jesus from what the NT wrote about Jesus. Text most used was James, chapter 2 and how it was not a contradiction to faith alone, as Luther thought and wanted it removed from the scriptures, but rather that true, saving faith will be accompanied by good works/deeds.

Our light shining, according to Jesus, is about good deeds but sometimes that focus gets placed more on what it means to be separated from the world in various ways. I view Jesus as talking about separating ourselves from worldly values and views on what is important and following Him as to how to treat those things. He certainly, by example, did not separate or remove Himself from engaging sinners where they habit and He did participate in many things of normal life.

Looking forward to more in this series.
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Re: How was church today ?

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Continuing on in our 'Roots' series and the teaching pastor has given us 2 weeks on pacifism and then added an additional one in a recording he made. He isn't afraid to tackle the big questions and the congregation gave him quite a list. For those interested in this 'Roots' series and specifically in the latest 3 on pacifism which he calls 'peace-ify' here is the link -

https://networkcmo.com/meadowbrook
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haithabu
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by haithabu »

My wife and I have spent the last ten days on a walking holiday in Cornwall and finished off by arriving in Falmouth yesterday, having walked along the coast from Penzance.

Since we were on foot we thought we would take pot luck at the closest available church service, and so this morning we attended a sung matins in the church of King Charles the Martyr. Somewhat high churchy, which is appropriate given the suspected Catholic predilections of both Kings Charles, with tapers being lit and a highly liturgical form of service using the old Book of Common Prayer. No Eucharist this Sunday.

Overall impression - very formal and not terribly inspiring. The service was poorly attended with about twenty grey heads in the pews. (To be fair we were told that the church has more contemporary services which are better attended on other Sundays.)

The first hymn was all about social justice and mentioned Jesus only as an example. The later hymn selections were more orthodox. The sermon was on forgiveness, following the assigned scripture readings for the day. I would have said that it was scripturally correct but not very deep.

Looking in the bulletin, I saw an announcement of a teaching series on liberation theology, and then another for the Alpha program. A reminder that the C of E is a broad church with a lot of disparate elements.
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by temporal1 »

haithabu wrote: .. The sermon was on forgiveness, following the assigned scripture readings for the day.
I would have said that it was scripturally correct but not very deep ..
i'm, also, attending as a visitor, "in a foreign land;" the sermon was on forgiveness. :)

i'm impressed with the cross-section of humanity that attends! babies to elderly. various dress.
it's a good representation of humanity. i'm accustomed to that, from childhood. i frequently have to remind myself, not everyone is.

i have visited enough to recognize this priest's approach and style of speaking. i'm impressed with his simplicity. he speaks in ways anyone can understand. my young granddaughter understands and remembers his content. (now+then, during the week, i'll ask her a question. she remembers.)

Jesus spoke in approachable ways that anyone can understand.
this makes me wonder, "do we make things overly complex?" .. i believe we do, particularly when we don't like what Jesus is saying.

i do wonder if this approach is difficult for this priest, i truly believe his real education and depth of faith go far beyond (appearances.) how hard this must be!

well. it's something i wonder about.

later this week, i expect to receive a video recording. i'll listen again.
in his simple words, he covered lots of important points.

enjoyed reading about your day! :D
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Re: How was church today ?

Post by Josh »

Yesterday the message was on Matthew 25 and the Sunday school discussion on Ezra's journey.

One thing stuck with me: the preacher said the 10 foolish virgins might be similar to those who trust in their church membership or status as a believer to get them into the wedding feast. But only those whose lamps were full of oil could make it in.

He compared them to those who haven't really been living a life full of the fresh oil of the Spirit. It was a good reminder to try to live like I am waiting to get into the wedding feast each day, and to keep myself prepared.
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