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Josh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:46 am

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:09 pm

ohio jones wrote: Easily fixed by starting school later.

Not so easily fixed by starting the school day later. If you shift the school day an hour later, to say 9:30 instead of 8:30 then you have millions of parents who need to leave for work an hour before their kids leave for school. So you fix that by starting the work day later and then the normal business day shifts from 9-5 to 10-6. And then we are right back to where we started.

Virtually everyone in America has a school bus or other public transportation to get to school.

Not really. Most kids who attend private schools don't have school bus or transit options. Nor to most kids who avail themselves of "school choice" or magnet school programs to attend schools other than their neighborhood schools. And most districts don't provide bus service to school for students who live within about 1 mile of school which is what they consider "walking distance".

I currently bike commute across my metro area to a school that is 12.5 miles away. During this past month every single morning I pass dozens upon dozens of school children walking in the dark on busy streets that often lack sidewalks, or waiting for the bus in the dark on street corners that aren't very protected from vehicles speeding by.

I'm agnostic about daylight savings time. It's just not something I waste much time worrying about. But I don't think school kids should be forced to walk to to school in the dark for 4 months out of the year on what are often very sketchy and dangerous streets that lack pedestrian amenities. Because as a nation we have largely failed to invest in them. Or because we can't figure out how to conduct public school during daylight hours.

Congress refuses to act. Voters allow it.

The only matter Congress is not brain-dead on is any decision that benefits their income, their privileges, their protections, their power. On these matters they are bipartisan and efficient. No dragging out decisions over decades.

DST is just a really easy example to reflect how blatantly irresponsible they are.

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:12 pm Congress refuses to act. Voters allow it.

The only matter Congress is not brain-dead on is any decision that benefits their income, their privileges, their protections, their power. On these matters they are bipartisan and efficient. No dragging out decisions over decades.

DST is just a really easy example to reflect how blatantly irresponsible they are.

I’m not sure it is actually a Federal issue to begin with. Each state can now determine their own policy. Hawaii and Arizona don’t have daylight savings. And Alaska abolished its time zones. Somehow the Republic has survived.

The conservative approach would be to let the states decide as they do now.

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:42 pm I'm agnostic about daylight savings time. It's just not something I waste much time worrying about. But I don't think school kids should be forced to walk to to school in the dark for 4 months out of the year on what are often very sketchy and dangerous streets that lack pedestrian amenities. Because as a nation we have largely failed to invest in them. Or because we can't figure out how to conduct public school during daylight hours.

Easily fixed by starting school later.

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:42 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:46 am

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:09 pm

Not so easily fixed by starting the school day later. If you shift the school day an hour later, to say 9:30 instead of 8:30 then you have millions of parents who need to leave for work an hour before their kids leave for school. So you fix that by starting the work day later and then the normal business day shifts from 9-5 to 10-6. And then we are right back to where we started.

Virtually everyone in America has a school bus or other public transportation to get to school.

Not really. Most kids who attend private schools don't have school bus or transit options. Nor to most kids who avail themselves of "school choice" or magnet school programs to attend schools other than their neighborhood schools. And most districts don't provide bus service to school for students who live within about 1 mile of school which is what they consider "walking distance".

I currently bike commute across my metro area to a school that is 12.5 miles away. During this past month every single morning I pass dozens upon dozens of school children walking in the dark on busy streets that often lack sidewalks, or waiting for the bus in the dark on street corners that aren't very protected from vehicles speeding by.

I'm agnostic about daylight savings time. It's just not something I waste much time worrying about. But I don't think school kids should be forced to walk to to school in the dark for 4 months out of the year on what are often very sketchy and dangerous streets that lack pedestrian amenities. Because as a nation we have largely failed to invest in them. Or because we can't figure out how to conduct public school during daylight hours.

… so start school later?

FIxed.

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:09 am

Ken wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:42 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:46 am

Virtually everyone in America has a school bus or other public transportation to get to school.

Not really. Most kids who attend private schools don't have school bus or transit options. Nor to most kids who avail themselves of "school choice" or magnet school programs to attend schools other than their neighborhood schools. And most districts don't provide bus service to school for students who live within about 1 mile of school which is what they consider "walking distance".

I currently bike commute across my metro area to a school that is 12.5 miles away. During this past month every single morning I pass dozens upon dozens of school children walking in the dark on busy streets that often lack sidewalks, or waiting for the bus in the dark on street corners that aren't very protected from vehicles speeding by.

I'm agnostic about daylight savings time. It's just not something I waste much time worrying about. But I don't think school kids should be forced to walk to to school in the dark for 4 months out of the year on what are often very sketchy and dangerous streets that lack pedestrian amenities. Because as a nation we have largely failed to invest in them. Or because we can't figure out how to conduct public school during daylight hours.

… so start school later?

Sure, but it is only really an issue for 3-4 months of the year. And then then a lot of workers are going to want to start work later as well if they bring their kids to school on the way to work. Because it doesn't work for a lot of people if they have to leave for work at 7 am but their 5 year old kindergartener or first grader doesn't get their bus or walk to school until 9 am. So you end up having to have a lot of early drop-off activities at the school (which costs staff and money) or having kids unattended in the morning. Not many families are going to want their little kids to be unattended and unsupervised every morning.

Or we can just change the clocks back in the winter like we do now. Or if you don't want to change clocks, then just leave the clock on standard time year-round and abolish daylight savings.

I honestly don't really care one way or the other. I'm just pointing out that the one big negative with keeping daylight savings time year-round is that in the northern latitudes of this county you are going to have a LOT of kids going to school in the dark during the winter months. That is not a small issue. In involves tens of millions of children that we are putting at greater risk from Nov-March if we don't turn the clocks back.

Dunno what universe you live in, Ken, but in lots of places (like northern Virginia) kids have to be on the bus by 5am. It is often not light by that time of day, regardless of DST.

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:59 pm Dunno what universe you live in, Ken, but in lots of places (like northern Virginia) kids have to be on the bus by 5am. It is often not light by that time of day, regardless of DST.

What school district in Virginia has kids on the bus at 5 am? If there are some then they are certainly outside the norm. I have sent my 3 kids to school on buses in 4 different school districts over the past nearly 20 years and I don’t think a single bus ever came by the house earlier than about 7:30 a.m. At the earliest some early routes might start their first pickup around 7 am. Certainly not 5.

In any event, buses aren’t so much the issue as kids who don’t ride the bus but have to walk to school in the dark on unsafe roads. Which is the case for millions of kids around the country.

I’m not sure why you are arguing the point. It is a simple fact that millions of kids have to walk to school every morning and millions more are outside waiting for the bus in the early mornings. Daylight savings or the lack of it has a direct effect on their safety. Is that reason enough to keep the current daylight savings time switch? I don’t know. I haven’t paid attention to all the arguments pro and con. I’m just pointing out that it is a very real safety issue with school kids and not one you can just hand-wave away.

Personally if we aren’t going to switch clocks then I’d prefer to stay on standard time year-round. That makes more sense to me.

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:59 pm Dunno what universe you live in, Ken, but in lots of places (like northern Virginia) kids have to be on the bus by 5am. It is often not light by that time of day, regardless of DST.

Do you have a link or source for this? I googled it and could find nothing except kids in Dubai