Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
Ernie
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Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by Ernie »

Bootstrap wrote:On the education side, I really would like to see all children get the equivalent of a high school education,
Some questions I've had is,
Why does the general populace generally agree that the amount of education a person can get in 13 years (k-12) is the right amount? Why this minimum? Why not 15 years worth or 11 years worth?

And what should be taught? Should or do schools actually teach how to shop for clothes?

I want my children to learn history from a pilgrim church perspective, not from an Evangelical or secular perspective.
My "core knowledge" list includes knowing something about people like Conrad Grebel, Menno Simons, Christopher Dock, Skippack School, Martyrs Mirror, etc. and does not include

And when should this knowledge be obtained? Should it all happen by age 17?
Years ago my dad floated a model in which children would at age 14 would begin working 3 days a week and doing book learning three days a week. This work and apprenticing would happen under the oversight of trusted role models. The idea is that it would prepare teens for industry and responsibility while continuing to stimulate their minds.
Such a model would mean that "formal education" (as understood by the western world) might be extended to age 20.
I actually like this model and would like to see it attempted somewhere. There is much education that children miss in the traditional K-12 model.
And should it stop at age 17 or age 20.
Should the Christian community be advocating continued education until the point at which they can no longer benefit from it? Would this contribute to less fossilization in Christian communities?

So if I could rephrase the quoted sentence above, I would say something like,
"I really would like to see all children get whatever education they need, that will allow them to accomplish the purpose for which they were created."
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Ernie wrote:"I really would like to see all children get whatever education they need, that will allow them to accomplish the purpose for which they were created."
I don't think anyone would oppose that.
So are you saying that you'd like to see an extended "formal" education that has a large focus on apprenticeship?

I, too, would prefer a solid, Biblical school if I had children. I'd actually very much like to teach in one. :)
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temporal1
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by temporal1 »

very interested in improvement in education models of young people.
our culture went from one that allowed children to be exploited in the workplace to one that both coddles and restrains (esp teens, esp teen boys.) this is where national programs and teachers' unions fall short.

in recent years, i've been thinking that "general thinking" about what government "should do," is a whole lot like how teachers controlled their classrooms (in the old days.) it was common then for teachers to threaten to PUNISH THE WHOLE CLASS, if even one student misbehaved. :(

this was effective, to a point.
the teacher knew where the problem was.
instead of directly addressing the problem, this technique enlisted the entire class to "peer pressure" the problem. not the healthiest approach.

but, wow, this is now so common in everyday thinking.
for any problem, no matter how rare, human laws will be drafted - to control all, forever-after.

bad things continue to happen, mountains of human law will never be a match for it.
(i sure wish) we could go "back to the drawing table" on all that.

teens are strong, capable, full of energy. our present ed system exists to confine+restrain them. with thought, there must be a better way. the idea of combining work+study is attractive .. esp when combined with "more" ..

from above:
Ernie:
So if I could rephrase the quoted sentence above, I would say something like,
"I really would like to see all children get whatever education they need, that will allow them to accomplish the purpose for which they were created."
yes. for them to know, they were created, for God's purpose, to serve God's purpose. they are not accidents of nature, they belong to God.
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Ernie
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by Ernie »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Ernie wrote:"I really would like to see all children get whatever education they need, that will allow them to accomplish the purpose for which they were created."
I don't think anyone would oppose that.
So are you saying that you'd like to see an extended "formal" education that has a large focus on apprenticeship?

I, too, would prefer a solid, Biblical school if I had children. I'd actually very much like to teach in one. :)
Yes. This whole thing of degrees has made education a joke. People who actually know something about a topic may not be "qualified" to speak or get a job and those who are "qualified" to speak may not know much.
I think it would be much better if people were awarded for what they know, not for what degree they have. I realize that sometimes the two go together.

Then there is the thing of knowing lots of information, but not having the life skills or relationship skills to do anything useful with it other than to teach it to someone else.
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by Neto »

A lot of my classmates in the public HS setting had trade school as part of their HS degree. Some guys got training in auto-body repair, or mechanics. Others went into welding, etc. Some of the girls did classes in clothing design, etc. I did a more academic program, not because I was 'smarter' than they were, but because of the objective I had (missionary work). But I did still have basic woodworking, and leather carving as well. I didn't use the leather carving skill on the field, but I did use the woodworking skills I learned, to build basic furniture when needed, machine my own trim for our house on the mission base, etc.

I don't think there is, or should be, a single answer for this question. Every person is different, and some know at 17 or 18 where they want to serve, others may not yet know. I completed my last formal course work at nearly 28, but most of what I know in my field of service I learned later, by building on that foundation. I will say one thing for formal programs of study - it takes a great deal of motivation to learn fields of study in which you have no particular interest. So self-education, while effective for your areas of interest, will not generally lead to a well-rounded education.
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temporal1
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:A lot of my classmates in the public HS setting had trade school as part of their HS degree. Some guys got training in auto-body repair, or mechanics. Others went into welding, etc. Some of the girls did classes in clothing design, etc. I did a more academic program, not because I was 'smarter' than they were, but because of the objective I had (missionary work). But I did still have basic woodworking, and leather carving as well. I didn't use the leather carving skill on the field, but I did use the woodworking skills I learned, to build basic furniture when needed, machine my own trim for our house on the mission base, etc.

I don't think there is, or should be, a single answer for this question. Every person is different, and some know at 17 or 18 where they want to serve, others may not yet know. I completed my last formal course work at nearly 28, but most of what I know in my field of service I learned later, by building on that foundation. I will say one thing for formal programs of study - it takes a great deal of motivation to learn fields of study in which you have no particular interest. So self-education, while effective for your areas of interest, will not generally lead to a well-rounded education.
agreed. for young folks, often the best way to determine interests/abilities is to try them, first-hand.

i remember telling our children, as they began working (while in school) - there's no better way to determine what you do not want to do, and find incentive/motivation to go elsewhere, than to have a job you don't like. this can be very useful.

motivation, and, self-discipline, are important traits/skills. in all areas of life.

i'm not sure public schools use their budgets like they used to.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:So if I could rephrase the quoted sentence above, I would say something like,
"I really would like to see all children get whatever education they need, that will allow them to accomplish the purpose for which they were created."
Yes, I like that. In this country, I think we have a major problem because we equate education with a person's value. There are really talented, skilled people without a college degree, and many others who could be skilled at important tasks without a college degree but never get there.

I don't think we'll ever reopen the coal mines, and I think the way we manufacture has changed, so there are a lot of people looking for meaningful work who do not want college degrees and should not need to get them. Could conservative Mennonites take initiative in providing other kinds of apprenticeship or education to help the broader society? Could this be a way of reaching others for Christ? In the work I've done with prison ministry and refugees, finding meaningful work is one of the most important issues for long-term success, and its something I know how to help them with.

In general, I would like to see a lot more respect for expertise all across the spectrum. A good barber, auto mechanic, baker, or farmer has skills that I do not, and that's something we should respect. An astrophysicist or surgeon does too.
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Hats Off
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by Hats Off »

Ernie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:On the education side, I really would like to see all children get the equivalent of a high school education,
And when should this knowledge be obtained? Should it all happen by age 17?
Years ago my dad floated a model in which children would at age 14 would begin working 3 days a week and doing book learning three days a week. This work and apprenticing would happen under the oversight of trusted role models. The idea is that it would prepare teens for industry and responsibility while continuing to stimulate their minds.
Such a model would mean that "formal education" (as understood by the western world) might be extended to age 20.
I actually like this model and would like to see it attempted somewhere. There is much education that children miss in the traditional K-12 model.
Ernie, this is similar to the model I have often thought of and I think it is actually being put into practice by the Markham Waterloo Mennonite community. They have been running into problems with boys that want to apprentice as tradesmen but need high school education. I believe the boys come together one or more days a week, they spend some time studying on their own and I believe they also have some work time every week. If you are interested in specifics, i can find detailed information.
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by appleman2006 »

Hats Off wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:On the education side, I really would like to see all children get the equivalent of a high school education,
And when should this knowledge be obtained? Should it all happen by age 17?
Years ago my dad floated a model in which children would at age 14 would begin working 3 days a week and doing book learning three days a week. This work and apprenticing would happen under the oversight of trusted role models. The idea is that it would prepare teens for industry and responsibility while continuing to stimulate their minds.
Such a model would mean that "formal education" (as understood by the western world) might be extended to age 20.
I actually like this model and would like to see it attempted somewhere. There is much education that children miss in the traditional K-12 model.
Ernie, this is similar to the model I have often thought of and I think it is actually being put into practice by the Markham Waterloo Mennonite community. They have been running into problems with boys that want to apprentice as tradesmen but need high school education. I believe the boys come together one or more days a week, they spend some time studying on their own and I believe they also have some work time every week. If you are interested in specifics, i can find detailed information.
I have two major problems with that program. One is that it is only 1 day a week that they come together which is not enough to really be effective IMO. And the second is that it is only open to boys. I see that as a real problem.
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MaxPC
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Re: Education - How much, what kind, and by what time?

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:A lot of my classmates in the public HS setting had trade school as part of their HS degree. Some guys got training in auto-body repair, or mechanics. Others went into welding, etc. Some of the girls did classes in clothing design, etc. I did a more academic program, not because I was 'smarter' than they were, but because of the objective I had (missionary work). But I did still have basic woodworking, and leather carving as well. I didn't use the leather carving skill on the field, but I did use the woodworking skills I learned, to build basic furniture when needed, machine my own trim for our house on the mission base, etc.

I don't think there is, or should be, a single answer for this question. Every person is different, and some know at 17 or 18 where they want to serve, others may not yet know. I completed my last formal course work at nearly 28, but most of what I know in my field of service I learned later, by building on that foundation. I will say one thing for formal programs of study - it takes a great deal of motivation to learn fields of study in which you have no particular interest. So self-education, while effective for your areas of interest, will not generally lead to a well-rounded education.
Agreed. I can also agree with others that not all young people are interested in having to go to college. Some are more interested in the trades or service occupations while others are interested in the theoretical sciences and arts.

Another factor:
Several studies have mentioned the delays in maturation among suburban young people; they are taking longer to mature in the social and emotional domains.

The educational models currently in place are overdue for an overhaul in curricula; delivery systems; and in the age brackets. I like some of the ideas I'm seeing here, especially the ideas related to apprenticeships in jobs combined with studies in the latter part of high school. I've seen this idea successfully implemented in Europe. I would add the requirements that the student remain in school for academics in order to keep the job. Also that their academic grades have a minimum GPA to continue in the job.

Expanding the age range to 20 or 21 is certainly reasonable in light of delayed maturity in certain populations of young people.

The educational model of the 1950s was experimental initially but as with the tendency of bureaucratic inertia the experiment became set in concrete and has been continued beyond its effectiveness. Partly contributing to that issue is the fact that university programs are geared for training teachers to function only in that model. This is compounded by the inability of the government to understand the funding needs of alternative models. Government finance committees prefer the cookie cutter assembly line schools currently in place because the formulas are already created for that model and don't have to be reinvented.

These are some thoughts I've had over the past 40 years or so and I'm glad to see others here sharing the vision of improving the model used to educate our young people.
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