Safe Zones and Refugees

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MaxPC
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Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by MaxPC »

I've always found that the best solutions came from those who don't mire a problem down with the political emotional blame game.

A simple "This is the situation and what are our options for solutions?" approach works best.

Situation: Refugees in danger from war zones.

Solutions:
temporal1 wrote: after the honeymoon period, this might cause these folks to have serious family problems in future, as families divide over what to accept and not accept. such problems are rampant here! if gov subsidies are accepted, compliance with gov mandates will be enforced.

i agree with Robert that immigration may not be the best way to aid.

it doesn't make sense that there is not more than one way to respond, and there may be better ways.

Robert shared an example of how trump is (already) working on supporting safe zones in cooperation with other countries.
I heard about the safe zone option yesterday. It's similar to some efforts that have been used in the past. The huge plus is that culture shock for the refugees is avoided or minimized, their language is retained as well as cultural traditions. The safe zones also became the nuclei for rebuilding communities.

One example: Britain during WWII used the "safe zone" approach. When the Nazis were bombing their major cities, they moved as many families as they could to the rural towns and areas where they were guests of families. It allowed these families to regain a bit of normalcy without having the added stress of learning a new language or new customs or laws.

Even though Americans (both Canada and USA) share a similar language the culture is very different from Britain. The culture shock of moving to our nation created some real problems for those very attached to their land, their cultural traditions and the cemeteries of ancestors, etc. it was another added stressor.

Working with other nations in the area seems to be the best first approach and it takes an excellent negotiator to set a cooperative solution in motion.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

"We don't want them here."
"They are better off if they stay where they came from." (And let's not ask them or the communities they have established here, our opinion is the one that counts.)

These are the same things many Americans said about the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, blacks. We keep coming back to the realization that these are not helpful attitudes.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

Unless I missed it, Trump hasn't yet given us a proposal for safe zones. It's hard to evaluate a proposal that does not yet exist.

When I hear the term "safe zones", I immediately think of the "safe zones" we established for the Kurds in Iraq. Or the safe zones in Bosnia. We let them down, badly. Are there places where this has worked out well? It requires providing military safety in a war zone, which is precisely what hasn't happened so far. It's a tempting target for ISIS to attack. Would this require boots on the ground? If so, how many decades are we committing ourselves to? If we work with other countries do do this, how do we make sure the political interests of Turkey and Russia aren't the main motivating factor, selling the victims of war to their interests?

I definitely think it's good that other Middle Eastern countries are taking in so many refugees. In a lot of cases, they are overwhelmed, and the conditions people are living in are not good. We take in so few refugees in the United States compared to Middle Eastern and European countries that supporting efforts in other countries is really important. But I don't think that lets us off the hook here. For the few that make it here, we really can provide a better life. And refugees have not been committing terrorism here.

Is there a particular model of safe zones you would propose? Is there a place where you think they have worked well in the past, better than they did with the Kurds?
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temporal1
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by temporal1 »

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=300&p=7137&hilit=safe+zones#p7137
Robert wrote:Trump seems to be working towards not needing to deal with refugees here.
The King of Saudi Arabia and the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi agreed with President Donald Trump’s request to support safe zones for refugees in the Middle East, the White House announced Sunday.

A White House readout of the call between President Trump and Saudi Arabian King Salman bin Abd Al-Aziz Al Saud said that the King agreed to “support safe zones in Syria and Yemen, as well as supporting other ideas to help the many refugees who are displaced by the ongoing conflicts.”

The readout of the call between Trump and Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Muhammad bin Zayid Al Nuhayyan of the United Arab Emirates was less specific but shared the same sentiment. “The President also raised the idea of supporting safe zones for the refugees displaced by the conflict in the region, and the Crown Prince agreed to support this initiative,” the White House said.
We will see how this pans out.
not sure where Robert's quote came from, but, i have been reading about safe zones in recent years. highly desirable for many reasons.

after WWII, the U.S. did tremendous work in rebuilding Europe, there was tremendous gratitude.

it's not reasonable to believe "immigration to the U.S." is the "one+only+perfect" response. :-|
limited focus certainly is useful for political wrangling, but, that, alone, speaks for itself.

lib groups that have ruthlessly (by force of human law) divided citizenry in the U.S., dividing churches near+far, dividing families over beliefs and politics .. now welcoming even more conservative folks to be placed in the social engineering grinder .. i'm not convinced.
"not all that glitters" ..

[this is my 2nd post for today. now, reading, and, real life.] :)
Last edited by temporal1 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: but, i have been reading about safe zones in recent years. highly desirable for many reasons.
What have you been reading? Where has it worked well? I associate the term with Kurds in Iraq and Bosnians in Yugoslavia, where it really didn't work. Are there other places where it has?
temporal1 wrote: after WWII, the U.S. did tremendous work in rebuilding Europe, there was tremendous gratitude.
Absolutely - and once there is peace in these regions, it would be great if we help rebuild.
temporal1 wrote:it's not reasonable to believe "immigration to the U.S." is the "one+only+perfect" response. :-|
limited focus certainly is useful for political wrangling, but, that, alone, speaks for itself.
I agree, immigration is just one of many good tools. But immigration is a core American value, and it has a lot of benefits. And one of those benefits is that it allows us in the church to show love to the refugees here. Another benefit is that it helps us break down enmity between groups by building relationships.

Only a small fraction of refugees ever get to immigrate. But that's not a reason to shut them out. It's possible that safe zones can also be a useful tool - but offhand, I just can't think of any time and place that they worked well. I haven't researched this, and my memory is short. Are there good examples I'm not thinking of?
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temporal1
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote:"We don't want them here."
"They are better off if they stay where they came from." (And let's not ask them or the communities they have established here, our opinion is the one that counts.)

These are the same things many Americans said about the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, blacks. We keep coming back to the realization that these are not helpful attitudes.
on this forum, this is downright piggish. imho.
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with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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MaxPC
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by MaxPC »

Agreed, T1. The OP asks for solutions, not emotional political statements.
MaxPC wrote:I've always found that the best solutions came from those who don't mire a problem down with the political emotional blame game.

A simple "This is the situation and what are our options for solutions?" approach works best.


Situation: Refugees in danger from war zones.

Solutions:
temporal1 wrote: after the honeymoon period, this might cause these folks to have serious family problems in future, as families divide over what to accept and not accept. such problems are rampant here! if gov subsidies are accepted, compliance with gov mandates will be enforced.

i agree with Robert that immigration may not be the best way to aid.

it doesn't make sense that there is not more than one way to respond, and there may be better ways.

Robert shared an example of how trump is (already) working on supporting safe zones in cooperation with other countries.
I heard about the safe zone option yesterday. It's similar to some efforts that have been used in the past. The huge plus is that culture shock for the refugees is avoided or minimized, their language is retained as well as cultural traditions. The safe zones also became the nuclei for rebuilding communities.

One example: Britain during WWII used the "safe zone" approach. When the Nazis were bombing their major cities, they moved as many families as they could to the rural towns and areas where they were guests of families. It allowed these families to regain a bit of normalcy without having the added stress of learning a new language or new customs or laws.

Even though Americans (both Canada and USA) share a similar language the culture is very different from Britain. The culture shock of moving to our nation created some real problems for those very attached to their land, their cultural traditions and the cemeteries of ancestors, etc. it was another added stressor.

Working with other nations in the area seems to be the best first approach and it takes an excellent negotiator to set a cooperative solution in motion.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:"We don't want them here."
"They are better off if they stay where they came from." (And let's not ask them or the communities they have established here, our opinion is the one that counts.)

These are the same things many Americans said about the Germans, the Japanese, the Chinese, blacks. We keep coming back to the realization that these are not helpful attitudes.


on this forum, this is downright piggish. imho.
But isn't that exactly what people are saying? Let's say it bluntly and see what it sounds like. It gets lost in all those words. If it looks bad in plain and simple language, that should tell us something.

Tell me that you think they are welcome here, or that you think we should ask the people who have come here as refugees to tell us what they think is best for them. That's the best way to show that I got it wrong.
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MaxPC
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by MaxPC »

Agreed, T1. The OP asks for solutions, not emotional political statements.
MaxPC wrote:I've always found that the best solutions came from those who don't mire a problem down with the political emotional blame game.

A simple "This is the situation and what are our options for solutions?" approach works best.


Situation: Refugees in danger from war zones.

Solutions:
temporal1 wrote: after the honeymoon period, this might cause these folks to have serious family problems in future, as families divide over what to accept and not accept. such problems are rampant here! if gov subsidies are accepted, compliance with gov mandates will be enforced.

i agree with Robert that immigration may not be the best way to aid.

it doesn't make sense that there is not more than one way to respond, and there may be better ways.

Robert shared an example of how trump is (already) working on supporting safe zones in cooperation with other countries.
I heard about the safe zone option yesterday. It's similar to some efforts that have been used in the past. The huge plus is that culture shock for the refugees is avoided or minimized, their language is retained as well as cultural traditions. The safe zones also became the nuclei for rebuilding communities.

One example: Britain during WWII used the "safe zone" approach. When the Nazis were bombing their major cities, they moved as many families as they could to the rural towns and areas where they were guests of families. It allowed these families to regain a bit of normalcy without having the added stress of learning a new language or new customs or laws.

Even though Americans (both Canada and USA) share a similar language the culture is very different from Britain. The culture shock of moving to our nation created some real problems for those very attached to their land, their cultural traditions and the cemeteries of ancestors, etc. it was another added stressor.

Working with other nations in the area seems to be the best first approach and it takes an excellent negotiator to set a cooperative solution in motion.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Agreed, T1. The OP asks for solutions, not emotional political statements.
If Trump comes up with a proposal for safe zones, maybe we can evaluate it. There is no solution on the table. Safe zones certainly didn't work in Bosnia or Iraq, and I can't think of any place they ever have worked. If you want to discuss solutions, discuss solutions, in detail.

Emotional political statements? This whole executive order stunt is an emotional political statement. Nobody has told us what problem it is a solution to. But the emotional statement is quite obvious. Don't be in denial.

If we don't want to be emotional political pawns, maybe we should be wary about instantly falling in line with political moves like this. Let's take time to evaluate them.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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