Safe Zones and Refugees

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Szdfan
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Szdfan »

Bootstrap wrote:
Szdfan wrote:In peace studies, there are two theoretical conceptions of peace: "negative" peace and "positive" peace. Negative peace is simply the absence of violence. It's the kind of peace that exists when a ceasefire is called or when UN or foreign troops protect a population from violence. Positive peace is "filled with positive content such as restoration of relationships, the creation of social systems that serve the needs of the whole population and the constructive resolution of conflict."
So how would you apply this for refugees fleeing violence from countries like Syria, Iraq, the Congo, etc? What does positive peace look like?
So I think a "positive peace" solution would be a solution that allows refugees to rebuild their lives and to live with the same basic security and stability that many of us middle class North Americans live with, regardless of whether they have the same living standard or not.

In the "Christ-Like Response to Trump's Border Security Order" thread, my friend Robert said:
Robert wrote:While many people's hearts are in the right place, immigration is not the solution. It forces people to leave their life, land, and family.
I disagree with his characterization. Immigration does not force people to leave their life, land and family. War forces people to leave. Persecution forces people to leave. Epidemics force people to leave. Natural disasters force people to leave. Lack of economic opportunity forces people to leave. Immigration is the attempt to start over in another place, because the situation at the place of origin is unlivable. Immigration is a solution to a problem, it is not the problem itself (except for those who don't want immigrants coming into their country).

The ideal solution, of course, is that the situation on the ground changes (war ends, persecution ends, the diesease is erradicated, infrastructure and homes are rebuilt, new economic opportunities emerge) and refugees can return home and rebuild their lives. Unfortunately, that's not always the case - the conflicts in Syria and Iraq are going to take years, decades or even a generation or two to resolve.

The purpose of refugee camps is to provide temporary housing and safety for those fleeing the crisis. It's a form of negative peace. It provides temporary safety from violence. Refugee camps provide temporary shelter to those displaced by whatever has happened. The problem is when refugees are unable to return home.

The Dabaab camp in Kenya near the Somali border houses 350,000 refugees. This camp has been there for almost 25 years. The Kenyan government prohibits the construction of permanent structures, but as Bono wrote in the New York Times in April following his visit there, "it is fiction to think the people here are going anywhere soon."

According to the United Nations High Commisioner for Refugees (UNHCR), 4.8 million Syrians are in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq. 1 million refugees have requested asylum in Europe. A positive peace solution would attempt to create a situation with enough stability and sustainability that would allow for the creation of permanent housing, sufficient food, electricity and economy that would allow people to build stable lives for themselves rather than a "permanent temporary" solution that warehouses people.

One solution is to allow people to immigrate to wealthy, stabile countries and provide them the resources to start a new life in that place. Certainly culture is a challenge and immigrant families have their own unique dynamics, but it's not an insurmountable challenge. I think what Bootstrap's church is doing is a form of positive peacemaking - they are providing the friendship and resources to help this immigrant family adjust to the new country they live in with the hope that this family can start over and build a new life for themselves.

Obviously, it is not possible to bring all of the 65 million displaced people throughout the world into Europe and the US. Robert's correct that the problem is overwhelming. But because not everyone can immigrate doesn't mean that we shouldn't let anyone. Because we can't help everyone doesn't mean we shouldn't help those we can help.

Immigration is a consequence of an unequal world. As long as their are rich, stable countries and poor, unstable ones, people from those poor unstable countries are going to try to find opportunities in the rich ones.

For those who want to create "safe zones" rather than allow immigration, are you prepared to commit the military forces to keep these people safe? Are you prepared to do the kind of nation building that creates a stable system that allows people to build a life and prosper?

Negative peace focuses on the short term, positive peace on the long term.
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temporal1
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote:
Josh wrote:I do think Christ should be our example, and he sure didn't try to do anything for people outside of his local area of influence.
I was outside his local area of influence.
yes, some passages come to mind, the first, Mark 16:15, when Jesus gave His disciples their (our) "marching orders;" another comes at the end of John, when scriptures describe how Jesus went into the world and accomplished so much, His works could not be contained in books on all of earth! what imagery.

having said that, i understand Josh to be seeking Truth in a sincere way. i admire that.

i also wonder if this way of thinking may have been the common way in the U.S. prior to the world wars? .. sometimes referred to as an isolationist view? i can only wonder (i was not there.)

however, many in the U.S. and outside the U.S. believe the U.S. has become over reaching, haughty, and more. many are offended by U.S. policies that attach unwanted politically divisive strings to government "aid" (this is done domestically and in foreign countries, now SOP.)
do read the fine print.

in Mark 16:15, does Jesus use the word "creature" as yet another word for "neighbor?" :)

Mark 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.


there was interesting discussion of John 14:12 on MD:

John 14:12
"I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do.
:arrow: And he will do even greater works than these, :shock:
because I am going to the Father."
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Robert
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Robert »

Szdfan wrote:So I think a "positive peace" solution would be a solution that allows refugees to rebuild their lives and to live with the same basic security and stability that many of us middle class North Americans live with, regardless of whether they have the same living standard or not.
Instead of quoting all your post, I just pulled the first line.

I agree with almost all of what you posted. I think it is an elitist and self centered attitude for "us in the west" to think we are superior in culture and need to help out these poor and backward people. I do not think any on MN are projecting this, but I sense it from others pushing for increased refugees. When they assimilate, they will be forced to loose most of their culture or have to continually fight the barriers keeping their culture in a western culture creates. Much of their culture is alien to me, but I would suspect much of it is as valid as western culture.

Syrian Christians go back 2000 years. They could probably teach us some things. When put into a refugee posture, most of their culture will get lost once they immigrate to whatever country they go to. The more you break them up into small groups, the harder it is for them to hold on to the good things from their cultures.

As you stated, my big problem is that many will "feel" like they are doing something by helping a few refugees and not press for the best solution which is to stop the conflict. Those who flee to Jordan can easily return if the fighting stops. Those who go to the US, Canada or other western countries will have a much harder time returning.

If a refugee family knocked n my door, you better believe I would let them in and assist them in any way I could. I would become a irritating advocate for them. Yet, I would still go to sleep every night thinking of the countless millions that are still in the midst of the turmoil. Yes, help those we can, but should we give them a fish, or give them a fishing pole and teach them to fish?

I was encouraged to hear about Szdfan's sister's connection with the immigration organizations. I still know that it is not fool proof and some will slip through. When they do and "if" they do something severe, I am more fearful of the retaliation that I suspect would be coming from it.

I also hope they do not send an refugees to Chicago. I think they might be in greater danger there. :shock:
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Josh
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Josh »

I'm curious what people think will happen if everyone migrated to a "wealthy, stable" country who wants to.
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Robert
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Robert »

Interesting video. Ava Posted it. I think he has a voice. Not sure I totally agree, but it brings more light on the subject.

I know the link is from Milo's FB page. He posted it. I am just using the link. Please do not claim that it can not be credible just because it was posted on his page.

https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/ ... 963086367/
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Bootstrap
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:I'm curious what people think will happen if everyone migrated to a "wealthy, stable" country who wants to.
Since nobody at all is arguing for that, why does it keep coming up? It's like saying people want to close our borders entirely and stop all international travel. That's not what anyone on either side is asking for.

Better to focus on the real issue that people are actually discussing.
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temporal1
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote:.. I also hope they do not send an refugees to Chicago. I think they might be in greater danger there. :shock:
briefly, this is part of "the rub" for legal citizens in crisis in Chicago.

Chicago career politicians, both parties, are committed tools of D.C. activists.
those in crisis watch while untold government funds are made available for .. politically-approved others, while they (who voted for representation, pay taxes) are ignored, victims dying in the streets by the thousands.

Chicago career politicians are bent on sabotaging trump, no matter costs.
it's about politics, power, money.

i don't mean to sound like i'm well-informed, i do not believe i am.
i have no idea what to make of it, i believe like most others. it all defies reason.

i have no idea what to make of trump's plans/efforts.
definitely interested in giving him the opportunity to preside.


Chicago is just one of many seriously troubled U.S. urban areas.
reports are, it's consistently the clear "leader" in violence/murders; the fact it's obama's stated home city-state makes it all the more painful.

career politicians have lost their way.
Last edited by temporal1 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:When they assimilate, they will be forced to loose most of their culture or have to continually fight the barriers keeping their culture in a western culture creates. Much of their culture is alien to me, but I would suspect much of it is as valid as western culture.

Syrian Christians go back 2000 years. They could probably teach us some things. When put into a refugee posture, most of their culture will get lost once they immigrate to whatever country they go to. The more you break them up into small groups, the harder it is for them to hold on to the good things from their cultures.
In the United States, I do think most Arab Christians and Muslims assimilate. You just don't see many 2nd generation Arabs with head coverings. America really is a melting pot. But America accepts less than 1% of refugees.

Might be interesting to look at what Syrian Christians and other Arab Christians are saying about refugees and emigration. They talk a lot about assimilation.
Robert wrote:As you stated, my big problem is that many will "feel" like they are doing something by helping a few refugees and not press for the best solution which is to stop the conflict. Those who flee to Jordan can easily return if the fighting stops. Those who go to the US, Canada or other western countries will have a much harder time returning.
I think it tends to work the other way. Nothing brings home the horrors of war like refugees who can tell us their experiences.
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temporal1
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote:As you stated, my big problem is that many will "feel" like they are doing something by helping a few refugees and not press for
:arrow: the best solution which is to stop the conflict.

Those who flee to Jordan can easily return if the fighting stops.
Those who go to the US, Canada or other western countries will have a much harder time returning.
right here in the U.S., imagine if non-plain Christians were expected to assimilate into Amish communities.

just that "relatively" easy change, geographically, culturally, would seem impossible/unbearable.

to outsiders, they might wonder, "why not?! what's the big deal?!" it's a melting pot!
to those impacted, on both sides, it's a big deal.
possibly, a visit to a camp in Canada would be easier/more humane, all around.
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Re: Safe Zones and Refugees

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:to outsiders, they might wonder, "why not?! what's the big deal?!" it's a melting pot!
to those impacted, on both sides, it's a big deal.
The melting pot is certainly a big deal. And it's been a concern for many ethnic groups emigrating to America for many years. My own family lived in a German speaking community and did not want to lose its cultural identity and language, but it did. My roommate in college was Ukranian, and his grandparents refused to speak English with their family. That helped me learn some Ukranian, but the third generation no longer speaks it. Immigrants try hard to preserve their culture. In Canada, they do a better job of preserving it, Canada is more of a salad bowl than a melting pot. America is a melting pot.

But would it have been more humane to tell the German, Irish, Chinese, South American and other migrants that they may not come to this country? Is it more humane to tell them that they cannot decide where they prefer to raise their children? We cannot allow everyone who wants to into the country, I agree with that, but refugees have good reason to leave, and we take only a small percent of refugees as it is.

For refugees, the question may well be basic safety for their families. And if one family comes for basic safety, their close relatives may also want to come so that their extended family is not broken up.
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