College

[lesterb]

A word from Knight:

6. And if anyone thinks he has the equivalent of a PhD in Ancient History just by reading on his own, and it’s a matter of “a piece of paper,” please take a look at a college website that outlines the requirements for the degree. Let me know how many of the 40 (or more) ancient authors you have read even in translation, and how well it worked when you tried to learn Latin and/or Greek on your own. Have you read Thucydides and Herodotus? Can you explain their differing approaches to writing history? What do you think of the Cornford thesis? Do you think Luke was familiar with them? or with the Iliad?

Knight

Touche. I suppose that was aimed at me anyway. Just remember that I didn't know you were going to read this or I would have stayed out of it. On my part it was just wishful thinking. It's what I would have enjoyed being but never had a chance, like I thought you knew.

[joshuabgood]

A word from Knight:

6. And if anyone thinks he has the equivalent of a PhD in Ancient History just by reading on his own, and it’s a matter of “a piece of paper,” please take a look at a college website that outlines the requirements for the degree. Let me know how many of the 40 (or more) ancient authors you have read even in translation, and how well it worked when you tried to learn Latin and/or Greek on your own. Have you read Thucydides and Herodotus? Can you explain their differing approaches to writing history? What do you think of the Cornford thesis? Do you think Luke was familiar with them? or with the Iliad?

Knight

Touche. I suppose that was aimed at me anyway. Just remember that I didn't know you were going to read this or I would have stayed out of it. On my part it was just wishful thinking. It's what I would have enjoyed being but never had a chance, like I thought you knew.

Yes... And, I know PHds in liberal arts and there are some of them that I'd be well willing to line up well read people, without a PHd, against.

[temporal1]

Knight:

[start]
Knight wrote:

JM wrote:
I really wonder what the actual use of that [Greek] is on a congregational level, and wonder why so much emphasis.

I wonder too, and I wonder what sort of emphasis. My profs in classical Greek and Latin taught us to look at the skill of the author and the beauty of the work, and to realize what a hard job the translator had.

JoshBG wrote:
I have never felt like it was necessary to learn Greek to know everything one needs to know regarding being a follower of Jesus. It doesn't make sense to me that one couldn't get what one needs from a quality translation.

Someone had to learn Greek to do the translation. But expecting every Christian to learn Greek is like expecting every driver to be a mechanic. Usually you just drive your car, and call the mechanic when you get stuck. And he comes and helps. So sometimes you need someone who knows Greek, and sometimes you need someone(s) who also knows Hebrew, Latin, and History to make sense of the difference in the translations or to translate the scriptures into a new language. I thought this was the way the body of Christ was supposed to function.

But when I think back to some of the ethnic CMs who knew German and used it to make fun of us NMBs who did not, I understand better the fear some CMs have of some folks learning Greek. They fear that, this time, they will be the ones made fun of.
Knight
[end]

[Bootstrap]

I have never felt like it was necessary to learn Greek to know everything one needs to know regarding being a follower of Jesus. It doesn't make sense to me that one couldn't get what one needs from a quality translation.

Someone had to learn Greek to do the translation. But expecting every Christian to learn Greek is like expecting every driver to be a mechanic. Usually you just drive your car, and call the mechanic when you get stuck. And he comes and helps. So sometimes you need someone who knows Greek, and sometimes you need someone(s) who also knows Hebrew, Latin, and History to make sense of the difference in the translations or to translate the scriptures into a new language. I thought this was the way the body of Christ was supposed to function.

But when I think back to some of the ethnic CMs who knew German and used it to make fun of us NMBs who did not, I understand better the fear some CMs have of some folks learning Greek. They fear that, this time, they will be the ones made fun of.

I agree.

If you don't read Greek, you are definitely missing some things. You will have a harder time understanding why translations differ, you won't realize just how different the writing styles of different authors are, you lose out a little on the personality of individual writers, you miss some subtle cues that affect the feeling and the voice. Anyone who knows another language well will understand what I am saying.

But reading Greek means precisely that - reading pages of text that are in Greek, and doing it more or less like you read pages of text in English or German. Looking up Strong's numbers and using an interlinear is not reading Greek. If you spend some time every day reading Greek, you eventually get pretty good at it. It's useful to have a few people like that.

Most of the time, this doesn't change the meaning you would find in reliable translations. Often, it makes it clear that people building their doctrines on hidden meaning found only in the Greek are actually building on sand. People looking at interlinears and Strong's numbers can often see whatever they want to in the text because these tools give you no clue about the structure of the sentence, and that's central to understanding the meaning. Many, many publications that refer to the original meaning found in the Greek text are simply wrong. The Greek language was not created to prove your favorite doctrine or my favorite doctrine. God isn't trying to hide things from us poor English speakers.

It's hard to explain, but perhaps this will help. I have this book in the original English and in Dutch. They tell the same story. The meaning of each line is basically the same, the Dutch version is a very good translation. But they each say it a little differently. You always lose something in translation, you often add something in translation. If you can read this book in the original English, there are things you get that will be lost on the person who reads it in Dutch.

dr-seuss-de-kat-met-de-hoed-en-andere-verhalen.jpg (68.3 KiB) Viewed 576 times

[Josh]

I have an amateur level understanding of Greek and (modern) Hebrew, which is enough to know I’m better off reading someone else’s translation. And I spent 2 years studying Greek and Latin daily from age 12 - 14.

The simple reality is that early church history is pretty well understood and there’s lots of scholarship on it, and most of that scholarship isn’t Anabaptist scholarship. Most of us have other things we need to be doing.

Some Orthodox churches use Koine Greek in their liturgies, and it doesn’t seem to have made them distinctly better than other Orthodox groups that don’t use Koine Greek, or better than Catholics they don’t use Greek. I agree wholeheartedly with Knight; this is really a dead end.

[Bootstrap]

I agree wholeheartedly with Knight; this is really a dead end.

Hmmm, I'm not sure that's quite what Knight is saying. I think he is saying that some people really should learn these things if it is their role in the body of Christ. Most of us don't need to do that, but some people do have that role.

Someone had to learn Greek to do the translation. But expecting every Christian to learn Greek is like expecting every driver to be a mechanic. Usually you just drive your car, and call the mechanic when you get stuck. And he comes and helps. So sometimes you need someone who knows Greek, and sometimes you need someone(s) who also knows Hebrew, Latin, and History to make sense of the difference in the translations or to translate the scriptures into a new language. I thought this was the way the body of Christ was supposed to function.

I think he is also saying that getting to where you really know these things takes a whole lot of work.

I agree with him. The Sattler folks want to revolutionize instruction in biblical languages. If they succeed, more power to them. But they haven't gotten there yet.

[Judas Maccabeus]

A word from Knight:

Touche. I suppose that was aimed at me anyway. Just remember that I didn't know you were going to read this or I would have stayed out of it. On my part it was just wishful thinking. It's what I would have enjoyed being but never had a chance, like I thought you knew.

Yes... And, I know PHds in liberal arts and there are some of them that I'd be well willing to line up well read people, without a PHd, against.

I know one who is managing a Friendly Ice Cream....and IMHO not doing a very good job of it.

Seriously, I would have loved to have been able to go the PhD route, and teach in my first love, History, but I needed to be able to get a job quickly, where I could make a living as soon I was out. Many of us did what we did, simply because we had to.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I have an amateur level understanding of Greek and (modern) Hebrew, which is enough to know I’m better off reading someone else’s translation. And I spent 2 years studying Greek and Latin daily from age 12 - 14.

The simple reality is that early church history is pretty well understood and there’s lots of scholarship on it, and most of that scholarship isn’t Anabaptist scholarship. Most of us have other things we need to be doing.

Some Orthodox churches use Koine Greek in their liturgies, and it doesn’t seem to have made them distinctly better than other Orthodox groups that don’t use Koine Greek, or better than Catholics they don’t use Greek. I agree wholeheartedly with Knight; this is really a dead end.

You should have seen some of my Sunday School lessons in Arabic. Makes you really understand why a good committee translation is better than a couple years of language.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I agree wholeheartedly with Knight; this is really a dead end.

Hmmm, I'm not sure that's quite what Knight is saying. I think he is saying that some people really should learn these things if it is their role in the body of Christ. Most of us don't need to do that, but some people do have that role.

Someone had to learn Greek to do the translation. But expecting every Christian to learn Greek is like expecting every driver to be a mechanic. Usually you just drive your car, and call the mechanic when you get stuck. And he comes and helps. So sometimes you need someone who knows Greek, and sometimes you need someone(s) who also knows Hebrew, Latin, and History to make sense of the difference in the translations or to translate the scriptures into a new language. I thought this was the way the body of Christ was supposed to function.

I think he is also saying that getting to where you really know these things takes a whole lot of work.

I agree with him. The Sattler folks want to revolutionize instruction in biblical languages. If they succeed, more power to them. But they haven't gotten there yet.

They will need at least two PhDs with BOTH the academic background, and the ability to teach. Those two do not often come in the same package. Added to wanting people who will be in agreement with the views of the college, I doubt if they will find them at the amount they are able to pay. Boston is really a high cost city.

J.M.

[joshuabgood]

Knight:

[start]
Knight wrote:

JM wrote:
I really wonder what the actual use of that [Greek] is on a congregational level, and wonder why so much emphasis.

I wonder too, and I wonder what sort of emphasis. My profs in classical Greek and Latin taught us to look at the skill of the author and the beauty of the work, and to realize what a hard job the translator had.

JoshBG wrote:
I have never felt like it was necessary to learn Greek to know everything one needs to know regarding being a follower of Jesus. It doesn't make sense to me that one couldn't get what one needs from a quality translation.

Someone had to learn Greek to do the translation. But expecting every Christian to learn Greek is like expecting every driver to be a mechanic. Usually you just drive your car, and call the mechanic when you get stuck. And he comes and helps. So sometimes you need someone who knows Greek, and sometimes you need someone(s) who also knows Hebrew, Latin, and History to make sense of the difference in the translations or to translate the scriptures into a new language. I thought this was the way the body of Christ was supposed to function.

But when I think back to some of the ethnic CMs who knew German and used it to make fun of us NMBs who did not, I understand better the fear some CMs have of some folks learning Greek. They fear that, this time, they will be the ones made fun of.
Knight
[end]

I'm not afraid of people who know Greek. I appreciate them. I am happy they translate the texts effectively. However, I have more confidence in these translator's, who have made Greek and English their life study, than I do of folks who took a few intro courses in under-grad. That is my point.

Further, I don't think one needs to know the original language to "get" the good news. One needs a reliable translation of the text. That is all. And they exist.